That's not terribly convincing without the corresponding argument.
Non-binary: What do you understand it to mean?
- Thread starter Banderill
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D
Deleted member 28
Guest
Apologies, you 'behave' like a Woman on these occasions, my mistake.
AuroraSaab
Legendary Member
If there were no gender stereotypes, if every person on earth had the same haircut and wore the same clothes, if there was complete equality and uniformity in terms of how both sexes were treated and how they looked, what would there be to transition to?
Fab Foodie
Guru
You do write some rubbish sometimes.
newfhouse
pleb
Doesn’t sound like much fun.
Fab Foodie
Guru
North Korea?
AuroraSaab
Legendary Member
Well no, it probably wouldn't be. What would be much better would be if anybody could wear what they wanted and there were no stereotypes that told you 'This is a man' and 'This is a woman'. It would have the same effect, but be more enjoyable.
If men could routinely wear makeup and dresses, if there were no gendered toys and boys could like ballet and dolls without mocking or derision, if there were no expectations of gendered behaviour at all, and no sexualisation and objectification of womanhood, what would there be to transition to?
newfhouse
pleb
I agree that we should all have the freedom to have our own interests, preferences, tastes and so on without fear of disapproval or consequence. All the usual caveats, obviously. The same goes for behaviour and employment.
Beyond that we part company, I think, unless I have misunderstood you. We can have discussions about how much is innate, how much conditioning, but the fact is that I and you and everyone else uses visual cues as part of the mix of how we assess others as potential associates, rivals, threats and especially mates.
Beyond that we part company, I think, unless I have misunderstood you. We can have discussions about how much is innate, how much conditioning, but the fact is that I and you and everyone else uses visual cues as part of the mix of how we assess others as potential associates, rivals, threats and especially mates.
matticus
Guru
Totally agree - this seems the best direction to approach the problem.
(Plenty of exemplars from history; Bowie was loved by folks from every persuasion. And look at the awful dresses Henry VIII wore!
Women are happy enough with some sisters wearing these new-fangled trousers to the toilets. I know I don't mind a bloke wearing a dress in the Gents - although are they practical at the urinal? Not sure, his problem, not mine - so anyway, where is the problem?
Crikey, we even let Alan Carr have his own television show... )
AuroraSaab
Legendary Member
We do use visual clues, but in terms of clothing and makeup etc. what is a sign of 'feminine' or 'masculine' has varied over time and between cultures. Nothing in the way people dress or behave is innately feminine or masculine. The fact that we associate certain styles with male or female, eg long hair in the West, is simply cultural conditioning.
Gender critical people like me would like to see the cultural conditioning done away with so that people are free to live as they want. The only caveat to this would be that because women are oppressed on the basis of their sex (not how they dress or behave), there are times where your sex matters. And because that oppression is mainly done by men, in certain circumstances it is acceptable, and certainly not bigoted or transphobic, to exclude men from some women's spaces, regardless of how 'feminine' those men dress or feel.
Gender critical people like me would like to see the cultural conditioning done away with so that people are free to live as they want. The only caveat to this would be that because women are oppressed on the basis of their sex (not how they dress or behave), there are times where your sex matters. And because that oppression is mainly done by men, in certain circumstances it is acceptable, and certainly not bigoted or transphobic, to exclude men from some women's spaces, regardless of how 'feminine' those men dress or feel.
FishFright
Well-Known Member
If you'd stop making things up about trans people I'd maybe engage on the subject.
cookiemonster
Veteran
- Location
- Far away from the asylum
AndyRM
Elder Goth
To answer the urinal question, it depends on the dress, some are more practical than others, but one of mine is very much a use the cubicle job as I'd rather not have my arse on display too; it's short and too tight to lift up with dignity!
newfhouse
pleb
Are people free to enjoy displaying their own cultural stereotypes if they wish? Isn't your solution to discrimination and oppression a little bit one sized, as well as impossible to implement?
