Non-binary: What do you understand it to mean?

[icowden]

I wouldn't care less, might raise an eyebrow but you've missed the point, it's the Men going into the Women's space that's in question here, not the other way round.

But if they don't go into the women's space, then they have to go into the men's space, right? Is that somehow better?

 

[Bromptonaut]

Let me think, a Man walking around in the Women's changing room/toilets?

Maybe some might be uncomfortable and that if they were in the middle of getting changed a Man in there wouldn't be welcome?

You described what I take to be a trans woman and use of the lavs at work. If people are in the habit of using the main part of the lavs (as opposed to a cubicle) to change into, say, their cycling kit then you've illustrated a problem that needs to be solved/managed. Full length doors and partitions may be another required/desirable adaptation.

As the law etc stands now then I think telling the trans woman to use the gents is a recipe for trouble.

 

[FishFright]

Gay and gender non conforming men have used the Gents for 150 years - often at risk to their safety. Despite this risk they have never campaigned for access to women's spaces in the way trans activists have.

It's really not women's jobs to give up their spaces in order to shield gender non conforming men from male violence, nor to allow access in order to validate their identity.

Yes that have campaigned and for a long time, just because you didn't notice doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

[Pale Rider]

just because you didn't notice

I doubt there's anything @AuroraSaab failed to notice about this topic.

 

[AuroraSaab]

But if they don't go into the women's space, then they have to go into the men's space, right? Is that somehow better?

Most women wouldn't have a problem with transmen in the Ladies as they pose little risk in terms of assault (compared to the risk that men pose). They might be challenged but women are generally quite accepting of gender non conforming women. If men have no problem with them in the Gents, they could use the Gents cubicles though - the issue is safety and privacy and transmen do not pose any risk to men.

 

[theclaud]

Tough being non binary in Spain though ....

View attachment 186

Ha! It does strike me as interesting that more systematically gramatically-gendered languages than English don't seem to come under a great deal of scrutiny on this issue. Or it may be that it's just passed me by as a near-monoglot. I am learning Welsh and it's fair to say that neither feminist nor transgender debates about language seem to have made a great deal of impact on teaching. As yet, anyway.

On something raised by @Bromptonaut, it is certainly becoming commonplace in my field (arts / third sector) for people to state or wear their preferred third-person pronouns in meetings/conferences etc. There seems to me to be some likelihood that this practice will become, if not compulsory, then at least de rigueur in short order. For me, this sort of choice belongs within the realm of the individual - I understand the principle of showing solidarity with trans people, but against that you have the performative nature of the thing (third person pronouns are specified most commonly in the situations in which they are used least) and the other point that doesn't seem to get much attention - that gender salience is a disadvantage for women where it differentiates them from men in a group. Cordelia Fine has done a fait bit of work on this - not in the context of trans issues but about the academic and professional performance of women being affected by the extent to which their gender is made conspicuous.

 

[Deleted member 28]

You described what I take to be a trans woman and use of the lavs at work. If people are in the habit of using the main part of the lavs (as opposed to a cubicle) to change into, say, their cycling kit then you've illustrated a problem that needs to be solved/managed. Full length doors and partitions may be another required/desirable adaptation.

As the law etc stands now then I think telling the trans woman to use the gents is a recipe for trouble.

I haven't described anything, a friend of my Wife's has been told that a MAN who identifies as a WOMAN is being transferred to their department and will be using their changing room, I've explained this already, and they're not happy about it.

If you can't understand why they're not happy about it then I'm not going to argue the toss with you, in my opinion it's just another example of how one person can decide they want to be something they're not and the rest have to accommodate.

 

[theclaud]

Most women wouldn't have a problem with transmen in the Ladies

You say this, but in my experience what I will call for convenience the GC movement wildly oversells people's ability to accurately read biological sex from appearance in casual encounters, and hugely underestimates the role of dress conventions and context in determining who we read as male or female. I have certainly met trans people I would not have known were trans - people who 'passed', to use the older term - and the problem of people thinking, or at least affecting to think, that masculine-presenting women are male is very well understood, especially by butch lesbians, and by girls who prefer clothes intended for boys.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Yes that have campaigned and for a long time, just because you didn't notice doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I've noticed it. Perhaps you could give me your thoughts on why trans activists don't campaign for third spaces? Women fought long and hard for women's toilets and domestic violence refuges, raising their own funds and working for nothing. Likewise, the campaign for women's sports.

Why can't the trans community do the same? Instead you have women's refuges being defunded because they won't admit transwomen.

 

[Bromptonaut]

I haven't described anything, a friend of my Wife's has been told that a MAN who identifies as a WOMAN is being transferred to their department and will be using their changing room, I've explained this already, and they're not happy about it.

If you can't understand why they're not happy about it then I'm not going to argue the toss with you, in my opinion it's just another example of how one person can decide they want to be something they're not and the rest have to accommodate.

Post #12 described the situation of your wife's friend and who might use the ladies loo.

When I sought clarification of what scenario bothered them the loo became a changing room which may be a different scenario to a bog standard office loo.

It would also be helpful to know exactly what the situation of the 'man' wearing women's clothes is. If they're fully transitioned, as the person I mentioned upthread was, then he friends may not even notice the difference.

If, at the other extreme, he's a hairy arXed bearded bloke going in there for kicks then obviously action is needed.

It's also worth pointing out that if the 'man' has a Gender Recognition Certificate in their new gender then offences can be committed if information is disclosed:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/22

 

[Deleted member 28]

Post #12 described the situation of your wife's friend and who might use the ladies loo.

When I sought clarification of what scenario bothered them the loo became a changing room which may be a different scenario to a bog standard office loo.

It would also be helpful to know exactly what the situation of the 'man' wearing women's clothes is. If they're fully transitioned, as the person I mentioned upthread was, then he friends may not even notice the difference.

If, at the other extreme, he's a hairy arXed bearded bloke going in there for kicks then obviously action is needed.

It's also worth pointing out that if the 'man' has a Gender Recognition Certificate in their new gender then offences can be committed if information is disclosed:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/22

Who's appointed you the Forum Transgender officer then?

I don't know what this fella is up to, nor does my missus for that matter, her mate was telling her and she commented on it to me.

This thread came up and it seemed relevant, I'm not really that bothered but when the full details have been established I'll be sure to let you know..

 

[AuroraSaab]

You say this, but in my experience what I will call for convenience the GC movement wildly oversells people's ability to accurately read biological sex from appearance in casual encounters, and hugely underestimates the role of dress conventions and context in determining who we read as male or female. I have certainly met trans people I would not have known were trans - people who 'passed', to use the older term - and the problem of people thinking, or at least affecting to think, that masculine-presenting women are male is very well understood, especially by butch lesbians, and by girls who prefer clothes intended for boys.

I agree you can't always tell, initially anyway. There's no reason that transmen with masculine physical characteristics couldn't use male facilities though. Presumably men wouldn't mind. It wouldn't be dangerous or an invasion of privacy in the way that a male person in the women's single sex spaces would be.

 

[theclaud]

I agree you can't always tell, initially anyway. There's no reason that transmen with masculine physical characteristics couldn't use male facilities though. Presumably men wouldn't mind. It wouldn't be dangerous or an invasion of privacy in the way that a male person in the women's single sex spaces would be.

I was thinking more about women with masculine presentation being harassed for using the women's, actually, but where I'm going with this is less about the logistics of toilet provision than the vision of where we would like to be. Isn't the demand that sex has to be legible and gender coded in reliable ways essentially conservative?

 

[AuroraSaab]

It would also be helpful to know exactly what the situation of the 'man' wearing women's clothes is. If they're fully transitioned, as the person I mentioned upthread was, then he friends may not even notice the difference.

If, at the other extreme, he's a hairy arXed bearded bloke going in there for kicks then obviously action is needed.

How do women know the difference between someone with genuine body dysphoria and the blokes who want to be in women's spaces for kicks? We don't, so we exclude them all just to be sure.

Anyone who thinks men going into women's single sex spaces just for kicks isn't a thing should Google 'men in women's toilets' or even 'sissy porn'. It's a hugely popular porn sub genre.

It goes without saying that it's not all men. It's enough of them to make women's single sex spaces a necessity though.

 

[Bromptonaut]

How do women know the difference between someone with genuine body dysphoria and the blokes who want to be in women's spaces for kicks? We don't, so we exclude them all just to be sure.

Anyone who thinks men going into women's single sex spaces just for kicks isn't a thing should Google 'men in women's toilets' or even 'sissy porn'. It's a hugely popular porn sub genre.

It goes without saying that it's not all men. It's enough of them to make women's single sex spaces a necessity though.

I don't imagine for a minute that men in women's spaces for kicks is not a thing. I'm sure my Mother related such incidents circa midC20.

Where I would disagree with you is that the mitigation for that risk is exclude them all just to be sure. To do so is not practical, is almost certainly unlawful under Equalities legislation and probably contravenes ECHR rights too.

Somehow it has to be properly risk assessed on a basis which is both site and purpose specific (the toilets in a government office are a different kettle of fish to a refuge) and with legitimate and proportionate mitigations.