Oh no!! Brexit not going quite as well as hoped

[Deleted member 49]

We're not about to usher in a new era of socialist utopia. It's Tories or notTories.

That's alright then.... Did you not want to vote Lib Dem last time..or was that just about Brexit and them being the second vote party.

 

[Deleted member 49]

Sadly that seems to be Adam's MO.

You know me so well....my principles come above all else.Im of that age that I'm a selfish c u next Tuesday 😁

 

[farfromtheland]

We're not about to usher in a new era of socialist utopia. It's Tories or notTories.

I don't imagine so, no. For one thing socialism has little in common with utopia, it's ongoing bloody hard work.

Just for the sake of the debate though, can you explain how you think we can avoid a slower slip into the version of fascism you quoted swansonj as fearing? Would a four year delay really help?

 

[farfromtheland]

I'd also quite like to know how many other people here really debated Brexit, before the referendum, with people who didn't already share their opinions?

 

[Deleted member 49]

Who'd have thought it ?

View: https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1479477059940458499?t=bvqgp1A-qBkC5xebFKKnFg&s=19

 

[Rusty Nails]

The corruption of the Labour party is a bigger problem than the Tories - it leaves us with no principled option.

From a position that is probably further left than most then you possibly do see Labour corruption as a bigger problem than the Tories, but that is based on what you want the Labour Party to be, which may be different to what other Labour supporters want it to be.

Labour it seems is doomed to the eternal battle for its 'soul' when faced with the fact that most people see only two credible alternatives for government and those on the further left or right of the party are too frightened, or pragmatic, to have the courage to split and form their own party. The Social Democrats tried that in the 80s but failed, imo, because too many Labour supporters were conditioned and/or lacked the vision to see that Labour did not have to be the only alternative to the Tories, and the far left would never have the courage to set up a stronger left wing party because it would be electoral suicide.

We get the parties and the governments that we want and thus deserve.

 

[BoldonLad]

I'd also quite like to know how many other people here really debated Brexit, before the referendum, with people who didn't already share their opinions?

Well, being a “Remainer” in the North East, almost everyone I know and spoke to was of an opposing view!, or, to use your phrase “didn’t share my opinions”.

 

[Deleted member 49]

Well, being a “Remainer” in the North East, almost everyone I know and spoke to was of an opposing view!, or, to use your phrase “didn’t share my opinions”.

Same....although there were things about the EU I was never mad on myself.Totally understand why so many from here voted leave though...shame they were sold on so many lies.

 

[farfromtheland]

From a position that is probably further left than most then you possibly do see Labour corruption as a bigger problem than the Tories, but that is based on what you want the Labour Party to be, which may be different to what other Labour supporters want it to be.

Labour it seems is doomed to the eternal battle for its 'soul' when faced with the fact that most people see only two credible alternatives for government and those on the further left or right of the party are too frightened, or pragmatic, to have the courage to split and form their own party. The Social Democrats tried that in the 80s but failed, imo, because too many Labour supporters were conditioned and/or lacked the vision to see that Labour did not have to be the only alternative to the Tories, and the far left would never have the courage to set up a stronger left wing party because it would be electoral suicide.

We get the parties and the governments that we want and thus deserve.

Yes.

Even wearing a more pragmatic hat though, I seriously reckon Labour would be more electable if it got its own democracy together, and this would mean accepting points made by its left for serious debate, not rigging the NEC and generally being upfront and honourable.

Apart from questions of whether the leadership are really just out for themselves, I think the two main problems are Labour claiming to represent or offer something real to poor people, yet its well off contingent not actually wanting to share enough to make much difference, and being craven to press barons.

 

[farfromtheland]

Well, being a “Remainer” in the North East, almost everyone I know and spoke to was of an opposing view!, or, to use your phrase “didn’t share my opinions”.

Same....although there were things about the EU I was never mad on myself.Totally understand why so many from here voted leave though...shame they were sold on so many lies.

And conversely I'm in the South east. Don't know if it was more toxic down here, except on social media of course, but in 'real life' some interesting discussions happened. Politically motivated lies were roundly protested. This is what got me thinking its about time honesty in politics got boosted.

 

[mudsticks]

Patriotism has a price it seems, and it's pretty cheap....

I'm looking forward to all the Brexiteers taking a 'patriotic stance' and boycotting any shops that dare to sell cheaper imported produce

A few farmers I know voted brexit because they naïvely believed that we would end up with an agricultural support system that favoured good farming in the UK.

They're been thoroughly disabused of this notion now, of course.

But like a lot of people I guess, they believed what they wanted to believe...

 

[Fab Foodie]

You know me so well....my principles come above all else.Im of that age that I'm a selfish c u next Tuesday 😁

I wouldn't go that far!

 

[Deleted member 49]

And conversely I'm in the South east. Don't know if it was more toxic down here, except on social media of course, but in 'real life' some interesting discussions happened. Politically motivated lies were roundly protested. This is what got me thinking its about time honesty in politics got boosted.

I'm pretty sure it was almost 70% of people voted leave here in Blackpool.As one of the most deprived areas of the UK it wasnt hard when your promising people jobs and money.It was a disaster for the local Labour MPs who had to go against the referendum aswell.

 

[farfromtheland]

I'm looking forward to all the Brexiteers taking a 'patriotic stance' and boycotting any shops that dare to sell cheaper imported produce

A few farmers I know voted brexit because they naïvely believed that we would end up with an agricultural support system that favoured good farming in the UK.

They're been thoroughly disabused of this notion now, of course.

But like a lot of people I guess, they believed what they wanted to believe...

I try to buy organic and nearest first on environmental grounds.
Have boycotted Sainsbury's and Tesco for many years, thanks.

What's the NFU position on this?

 

[winjim]

Shouldn’t that read “Tories or Almost-Tories”?

No. But I would even take proper Tories over the whatever it is we've got in government right now masquerading as the Tory party. That's how bad things are.

It's this. And Labour may need to work with other parties to get a Not Tories result.

They won't officially. We know that. It's down to the grassroots activists and campaigners to sort that out with a nudge and a wink, as it were.

That's alright then.... Did you not want to vote Lib Dem last time..or was that just about Brexit and them being the second vote party.

I did vote Lib Dem last time mainly because of Brexit. Had Brexit not been a factor I still would have voted Lib Dem.