Maureen Lipman: Cancel culture could wipe out comedy

[Deleted member 28]

I'll give you a perfect example of people making out something is racist and unacceptable when it clearly isn't.

I've a pal who is of Jamaican heritage (Black) who I've known for about 10 yrs and he's married to a White lass, anyway during a conversation he also mentioned HIS mother was White which took me by surprise as I always assumed he was fully Jamaican.
At that he said to me "It's right I'm half cast" which was a perfectly acceptable term for him and me to use.

Some years later I found out that it isn't something that's PC anymore?

Who says so?

And yes it is a cool story bro 😉

 

[Deleted member 28]

But I was replying to Shep who has amply displayed how uninterested he is in these matters.

No you weren't, I hadn't mentioned options at that point.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

I'll give you a perfect example of people making out something is racist and unacceptable when it clearly isn't.

I've a pal who is of Jamaican heritage (Black) who I've known for about 10 yrs and he's married to a White lass, anyway during a conversation he also mentioned HIS mother was White which took me by surprise as I always assumed he was fully Jamaican.
At that he said to me "It's right I'm half cast" which was a perfectly acceptable term for him and me to use.

Some years later I found out that it isn't something that's PC anymore?

Who says so?

My daughter has an Antiguan mother. She's never belonged to a caste, either fully or partially. She is mixed race or dual heritage, though. So they're accurate terms that don't refer erroneously to the social stratification that caste involves.

 

[Deleted member 28]

My daughter has an Antiguan mother. She's never belonged to a caste, either fully or partially. She is mixed race or dual heritage, though. So they're accurate terms that don't refer erroneously to the social stratification that caste involves.

Whatever you say pal, in the 70's she would have been half cast with no racism implied so when and why did things change?

What 'race ' does she belong to then?

I've been pulled up on here before now because I referred to my Wife as 'my' as it was seen as being a derogatory term?

If this is the sort of thing I have to be wary of saying I'm glad I don't live in your World, as I'm sure you are.

 

[farfromtheland]

I don't think 'mixed race' is an easy term either though. The implication is humanity is divided into races.

I too grew up with half-cast being a 'normal' word - we spelled it with no e and it seemed to mean like a clay or plaster casting.

How we feel under the words is important. It's when the words tend to make us think in certain casts that they are a problem. So I worry more about the word race here. Heritage is a good word.

 

[swansonj]

I'll give you a perfect example of people making out something is racist and unacceptable when it clearly isn't.

I've a pal who is of Jamaican heritage (Black) who I've known for about 10 yrs and he's married to a White lass, anyway during a conversation he also mentioned HIS mother was White which took me by surprise as I always assumed he was fully Jamaican.
At that he said to me "It's right I'm half cast" which was a perfectly acceptable term for him and me to use.

Some years later I found out that it isn't something that's PC anymore?

Who says so?

And yes it is a cool story bro 😉

The fact that a term was in common usage at one stage does not tell you anything about whether it was racist.

 

[farfromtheland]

The fact that a term was in common usage at one stage does not tell you anything about whether it was racist.

Why don't you ask your mate if would still say it, Shep? Blame us idle posters for bringing the subject up.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

For fark's sake, if you're going to use what is a wholly inappropriate term, can you at least use the correct spelling, ''caste?''

As I said, she doesn't belong (or half belong) to a caste, not coming from a background such as a Hindu one. And India is the background from which the term came to us.

And there's nothing half about her in any way, either. ''Half-caste'' was generally in use back when she was born in the late 70s, though mixed race was the preferred term at the time. Dual heritage is a later term which is better at describing the actuality of how she interacts with her world because, in the Venn diagram of black and white, she's in the space where the circles overlap and she inhabits both.

And in family life there's no need to put her into a category, she's simply a daughter of two parents. The categories seem to be mostly for the people who need to divide the world.

 

[mudsticks]

No, you were replying to Swansonj: Shep's post(s) came later. If you keep dragging sexism into a (reasonably nuanced) debate about unintentional racism, this might be a struggle.

(does every thread have to be about kicking Shep? What would John Noakes say? :-( )

Sexism is endemic in our society, just as racism .

I mention it once and then suddenly it's 'you keep dragging'

Your terminology is quite telling too..

A lot of the language used on this forum is sexist.
It's just so normalised that no one bothers to remark on it.

Doesn't mean it's not a part of the debate, and should never come up.

Gender discrimination intersects with racism and all the rest of it .

Awareness or lack of awareness, seems to be present across the board.

If I notice that someone has used sexist , and homophobic language in the past, and uses such phrases as 'playing the race card' should I ignore that.?

Are there no clues to underlying attitudes.

By ignoring such things , do we not implicitly approve them?

I don't think 'mixed race' is an easy term either though. The implication is humanity is divided into races.

I too grew up with half-cast being a 'normal' word - we spelled it with no e and it seemed to mean like a clay or plaster casting.

How we feel under the words is important. It's when the words tend to make us think in certain casts that they are a problem. So I worry more about the word race here. Heritage is a good word.

How the people concerned feel 'under the words' is of course the primary concern .

I try to be guided by that, by listening, and checking in if I'm not sure..

Without putting an unacceptable burden of 'you must educate me' onto other people.

Language evolves , always has done.
Before we were born , and will continue to do so after we've gone.

Paying attention to language, evolution means we are paying attention to how words effect others for good or ill.

Who is explicitly or implicitly excluded or in included.

It comes up a fair amount in my union work , so I guess I think about it quite a lot.

'Half cast' implies not quite fully made, or complete not quite 'right'

I don't think I'd like to be called that for any reason.

We see that now, but back then, when it was used unthinking ly maybe people didnt feel empowered to object ?

Now thankfully people can speak up , and demand to be treated equally, and choose their own self description, not have labels imposed on them by the historic 'overlords' who assumed superiority..

I'm glad to still be learning about all this stuff.
But I'm very aware that many people not at all directly affected, think it's all just a bunch of 'nonsense'

(I'm not suggesting you're one of them btw)

That's their privelege they get to think that, but I'm glad I'm not them.

Still another busy day tomorrow, best crack on ..

 

[Deleted member 28]

Why don't you ask your mate if would still say it, Shep? Blame us idle posters for bringing the subject up.

I'll ask him.

 

[Deleted member 28]

For fark's sake, if you're going to use what is a wholly inappropriate term, can you at least use the correct spelling, ''caste?''

As I said, she doesn't belong (or half belong) to a caste, not coming from a background such as a Hindu one. And India is the background from which the term came to us.

And there's nothing half about her in any way, either. ''Half-caste'' was generally in use back when she was born in the late 70s, though mixed race was the preferred term at the time. Dual heritage is a later term which is better at describing the actuality of how she interacts with her world because, in the Venn diagram of black and white, she's in the space where the circles overlap and she inhabits both.

And in family life there's no need to put her into a category, she's simply a daughter of two parents. The categories seem to be mostly for the people who need to divide the world.

Take a pill mate, it's a phrase nothing else.

 

[Deleted member 28]

Sexism is endemic in our society, just as racism .

I mention it once and then suddenly it's 'you keep dragging'

Your terminology is quite telling too..

A lot of the language used on this forum is sexist.
It's just so normalised that no one bothers to remark on it.

Doesn't mean it's not a part of the debate, and should never come up.

Gender discrimination intersects with racism and all the rest of it .

Awareness or lack of awareness, seems to be present across the board.

If I notice that someone has used sexist , and homophobic language in the past, and uses such phrases as 'playing the race card' should I ignore that.?

Are there no clues to underlying attitudes.

By ignoring such things , do we not implicitly approve them?



How the people concerned feel 'under the words' is of course the primary concern .

I try to be guided by that, by listening, and checking in if I'm not sure..

Without putting an unacceptable burden of 'you must educate me' onto other people.

Language evolves , always has done.
Before we were born , and will continue to do so after we've gone.

Paying attention to language, evolution means we are paying attention to how words effect others for good or ill.

Who is explicitly or implicitly excluded or in included.

It comes up a fair amount in my union work , so I guess I think about it quite a lot.

'Half cast' implies not quite fully made, or complete not quite 'right'

I don't think I'd like to be called that for any reason.

We see that now, but back then, when it was used unthinking ly maybe people didnt feel empowered to object ?

Now thankfully people can speak up , and demand to be treated equally, and choose their own self description, not have labels imposed on them by the historic 'overlords' who assumed superiority..

I'm glad to still be learning about all this stuff.
But I'm very aware that many people not at all directly affected, think it's all just a bunch of 'nonsense'

(I'm not suggesting you're one of them btw)

That's their privelege they get to think that, but I'm glad I'm not them.

Still another busy day tomorrow, best crack on ..

🥱

 

[mudsticks]

🥱

Yup, thanks for confirming my point ,so promptly, and predictably.

Well done .

 

[Hitchington]

No, you were replying to Swansonj: Shep's post(s) came later. If you keep dragging sexism into a (reasonably nuanced) debate about unintentional racism, this might be a struggle.

(does every thread have to be about kicking Shep? What would John Noakes say? :-( )

I think if we want to understand how all forms of bigotry come about then we need to understand our own unconscious bias or unintentional racism (for example) and learn from it when we recognise when it happens. We are a product of our environment and through some critical thinking and self examination we may come to realise what we hold as the truth is in fact in conflict with wider society.

For someone to show no interest in this self awareness tells us they are happy being a bigot.

And I'm sure the late great John Noakes would agree because in a "decade of brutal violence, unrestrained racism and sexism, and rampant paedophilia hidden with impunity in plain sight" he was one of the good guys.

 

[Hitchington]

I'll give you a perfect example of people making out something is racist and unacceptable when it clearly isn't.

I've a pal who is of Jamaican heritage (Black) who I've known for about 10 yrs and he's married to a White lass, anyway during a conversation he also mentioned HIS mother was White which took me by surprise as I always assumed he was fully Jamaican.
At that he said to me "It's right I'm half cast" which was a perfectly acceptable term for him and me to use.

Some years later I found out that it isn't something that's PC anymore?

Who says so?

And yes it is a cool story bro 😉

"fully Jamaican"