Gender again. Sorry!

[AuroraSaab]

Are there any unisex toilets in the UK where, French fashion, women walk behind/around men peeing in urinals?

Yes, one is shown in the link. Lyric Theatre, Hammersmith. Even without urinals, unisex toilets are more risky. I used 2 lots last week. One in a new build was fine - small corridor with a glass door that was in view of the tables, 5 or so cubicles, fully enclosed, no gaps, basin in the cubicle. The second was in a converted mill building. Long corridor, out of sight, windows covered, that led to a school type toilet room with a few cubicles with huge gaps under the doors and partitions.

And yet there are shared toilets in pretty much every small cafe, restaurant and workplace. All cubicles have locks.

If there are several cubicles and include a shared washing area, then they are unisex. Single occupancy rooms, like a disabled toilet, that you get in small cafes are not the same thing.

Communal toilets and changing rooms are more risky for children and women. We all know this.

And while I appreciate this is my experience, it is one which is generally shared, despite what *insert right wing ideology pedalling source du jour here* would have people believe.

Shared by men? Most people, especially women and girls, aren't going to report every incident or every time they were made uncomfortable, especially in somewhere like a club or bar. You also can't know how many women would self exclude and not use the facilities because they were unisex.

 

[CXRAndy]

And yet there are shared toilets in pretty much every small cafe, restaurant and workplace. All cubicles have locks.

They probably do, small premises with only one toilet, restricts to one person locked outside.

Unisex toilets where they multiple toilets have lockable cubicles, but with the opportunity for a lingering male to intercept a female in a room away from general view.

You could make toilets unisex with totally individual cubicles, but for safety they should be in clear view to the wider public.
However most toilet facilities are tucked away in an extra room. Comes back to safeguarding women

A row of stalls like at concerts would work but are basic in features. Women like their private, nicely done toilets.

Men aren't as fussy about their toilets, however I do like a janitorial service, keeping everything clean fresh.

I always tip them a fiver when I come across this service-very rare these days

 

[AndyRM]

Shared by men? Most people, especially women and girls, aren't going to report every incident or every time they were made uncomfortable, especially in somewhere like a club or bar. You also can't know how many women would self exclude and not use the facilities because they were unisex.

I thought I had chosen my words quite carefully, but apparently not.

I was speaking from my own experience. I try not to presume taking a stance for "most" people. I leave that schtick for others.

 

[AndyRM]

They probably do, small premises with only one toilet, restricts to one person locked outside.

Unisex toilets where they multiple toilets have lockable cubicles, but with the opportunity for a lingering male to intercept a female in a room away from general view.

You could make toilets unisex with totally individual cubicles, but for safety they should be in clear view to the wider public.
However most toilet facilities are tucked away in an extra room. Comes back to safeguarding women

A row of stalls like at concerts would work but are basic in features. Women like their private, nicely done toilets.

Men aren't as fussy about their toilets, however I do like a janitorial service, keeping everything clean fresh.

I always tip them a fiver when I come across this service-very rare these days

Again, speaking from my own experience, at the end of a night the ladies facilities look like they'd been hit by a gang of feral badgers on meth. The gents weren't much better but the general rule of thumb was they were a preferable clean up job.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Again, speaking from my own experience, at the end of a night the ladies facilities look like they'd been hit by a gang of feral badgers on meth. The gents weren't much better but the general rule of thumb was they were a preferable clean up job.

The Cavern Club was pretty grim in the men's by the end of the night featuring their Beatles act. Glad I was wearing waterproof shoes with thick soles!!

 

[multitool]

If there are several cubicles and include a shared washing area, then they are unisex. Single occupancy rooms, like a disabled toilet, that you get in small cafes are not the same thing.

Actually it is the same thing. It is people urinating and defecating behind a locked door. It makes no difference whether they wash their hands (or not) in the cubicle or outside.

Communal toilets and changing rooms are more risky for children and women. We all know this.

We aren't talking about communal changing rooms. We are talking about why you feel women need some sort of supernatural protection from the presence of men when emerging from a locked cubicle but you feel that disabled women are not deserving.

You can't seem to answer this without going off into irrelevant tangents, and invoking other scenarios.

"We all know" why you are doing this. It's because yours is a ridiculous argument when set against reality.

And that is before we come to.other countries who don't start flailing at the thought of a shared basin in what is usually an open space.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Actually it is the same thing. It is people urinating and defecating behind a locked door. It makes no difference whether they wash their hands (or not) in the cubicle or outside.

One's a completely enclosed room, as is an airplane toilet, the other is a cubicle that opens to an enclosed unisex space. Not the same at all.

We aren't talking about communal changing rooms. We are talking about why you feel women need some sort of supernatural protection from the presence of men when emerging from a locked cubicle but you feel that disabled women are not deserving.

Disabled women are obviously just as deserving of a single sex space - if they are using a designated disabled toilet they are getting that space. Weird that you think other women don't need or deserve the same.

Unisex spaces are more risky for women and children. We all know that. God knows why you try to pretend they aren't.

"We all know" why you are doing this. It's because yours is a ridiculous argument when set against reality.

Reality:

I don't believe there's a single parent on this forum who thinks their daughter would be just as safe going in to a unisex toilet as they would be going in to the Ladies.

 

[multitool]

Unisex spaces are more risky for women and children. We all know that. God knows why you try to pretend they aren't.

Belief is not the same as knowledge or fact.

What we "know" is that these beliefs are used in highly charged statements without evidence. You posting a few newspaper cuttings is poor evidence, if evidence at all.

There has been some proper academic research done on toilet usage and risk (proper research, not Aurora rESeArCh) and so far I've not seen any that backs up your claims.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Links to this research that says unisex spaces are just as safe for women and girls? UK stats suggest they aren't.

UK crime stats don't separate voyeurism and indecent exposure in their figures but the stats we do have for those offences show that they are almost exclusively male crimes, and that the victims are mostly female.

I can't even recall seeing a recent conviction of a woman for voyeurism in the UK, nor one of hiding cameras in toilets or upskirting.

Bearing in mind that the proposed changes don't stop places from having unisex toilets, they simply say there has to be single sex provision as well, it's weird that you are so set against single sex facilities. Where buildings have unisex toilets you will still be free to use them. Those of us who don't want to can use the ones intended solely for our sex. Win, win.

 

[multitool]

Links to this research that says unisex spaces are just as safe for women and girls?

Ah, you are twisting what I said again.

I know, i know. Old habits die hard.

UK stats suggest they aren't.

Where are these stats?

UK crime stats don't separate voyeurism and indecent exposure in their figures but the stats we do have for those offences show that they are almost exclusively male crimes, and that the victims are mostly female.

Yes, but those stats say nothing about whether sex segregated toilets result in different levels of crime

I can't even recall seeing a recent conviction of a woman for voyeurism in the UK, nor one of hiding cameras in toilets or upskirting.

So what?

Bearing in mind that the proposed changes don't stop places from having unisex toilets, they simply say there has to be single sex provision as well, it's weird that you are so set against single sex facilities.

Strawman alert!!

Where buildings have unisex toilets you will still be free to use them. Those of us who don't want to can use the ones intended solely for our sex. Win, win.

Cool.

But it us you that is arguing (without evidence) that they are safer for you that gender neutral toilets.

 

[AuroraSaab]

There has been some proper academic research done on toilet usage and risk (proper research, not Aurora rESeArCh) and so far I've not seen any that backs up your claims.

You said it here. Links to the research that you've seen?

Yes, but those stats say nothing about whether sex segregated toilets result in different levels of crime

The UK stats don't differentiate between toilets and other unisex facilities like changing rooms.
It would be remarkable if men misbehaved in unisex changing rooms but not in unisex toilets though wouldn't it?

We know from news crime reports that they do misbehave in unisex toilets though, via cameras, indecent exposure, upskirting, and conversely that very few women do - so which are safer for women and girls, unisex facilities or single sex?

But it us you that is arguing (without evidence) that they are safer for you that gender neutral toilets.

The evidence is that men are overwhelmingly responsible for sex offences, and most of the victims are women and girls. Aside from which, once again I have to point out that it's not just about safety.

When there's a choice of single sex or unisex I presume you'll insist your daughters use the unisex as a matter of principle. Because they're just as safe in there as in the Ladies, obviously.

 

[multitool]

So, no evidence then. Just assertion.

 

[AndyRM]

Belief is not the same as knowledge or fact.

What we "know" is that these beliefs are used in highly charged statements without evidence. You posting a few newspaper cuttings is poor evidence, if evidence at all.

There has been some proper academic research done on toilet usage and risk (proper research, not Aurora rESeArCh) and so far I've not seen any that backs up your claims.

You believe wrong.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Where's this research you've seen that proves me wrong? Why can't we all have a look?

There are far more unisex changing rooms than unisex toilets in the UK and surveys show they are more risky for women. If there were the same amount of unisex toilets, why would the risks be smaller in toilets than in changing rooms? The men who seek out unisex changing rooms to misbehave won't seek out unisex toilets?

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...g-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

I can put the sex offender stats up yet again if you like but they're going to tell us what we already know. Men comit nearly all sex offences and the victims are nearly all female.

As such, forcing women and girls to be alone in enclosed areas with men really isn't a good idea. Single sex provision alongside unisex solves this problem.

 

[multitool]

Where's this research you've seen that proves me wrong? Why can't we all have a look?

You are doing that thing again called dishonest misrepresentation.

Either that or your grasp of logic is really poor. Possibly both.

There are far more unisex changing rooms than unisex toilets in the UK and surveys show they are more risky for women

Surveys? Lets see them then. Cant take your word at face value, Im afraid.

. If there were the same amount of unisex toilets, why would the risks be smaller in toilets than in changing rooms? The men who seek out unisex changing rooms to misbehave won't seek out unisex toilets?

People dont strip off in toilets.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...g-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

I can put the sex offender stats up yet again if you like but they're going to tell us what we already know. Men comit nearly all sex offences and the victims are nearly all female.

Yes, men do.And that has no bearing on this discussion. I know it's the mantra you need to keep chanting to make yourself right about everything

As such, forcing women and girls to be alone in enclosed areas with men really isn't a good idea. Single sex provision alongside unisex solves this problem.

Nobody is forced to use the loo. You told us that when we discussed TW having to use men's facilities, despite the obvious danger of violence to them.