Benefits Again

[Bromptonaut]

Earlier today @shep posted about his lack of sympathy for a single mother of eight who had had her benefits cut:

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/mum-eight-marie-buchan-reveals-22272868

Not clear how Ms Buchan first found her way into the public consciousness but google offers multiple references to her as 'octomum' and benefit queen. It's not clear how she ended up with eight children though the eldest two are over 18 so no longer children.

Reports reference and income of approx £500/week - which would include her rent. A sense check says that looks about right in Tax Credits. If she's had to move to Universal Credit, where the Benefit Cap is applied much more aggressively, she'd be on less than £400. We're told she struggles to find work becuase of the 'octomum' label. We're not told whether to two over 18 are working or claiming in their own right.

Whatever her sins, if there are any, the children should not be suffering for them.

What should happen next?

Should we show empathy and understanding or just condemn?

 

[BoldonLad]

Earlier today @shep posted about his lack of sympathy for a single mother of eight who had had her benefits cut:

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/mum-eight-marie-buchan-reveals-22272868

Not clear how Ms Buchan first found her way into the public consciousness but google offers multiple references to her as 'octomum' and benefit queen. It's not clear how she ended up with eight children though the eldest two are over 18 so no longer children.

Reports reference and income of approx £500/week - which would include her rent. A sense check says that looks about right in Tax Credits. If she's had to move to Universal Credit, where the Benefit Cap is applied much more aggressively, she'd be on less than £400. We're told she struggles to find work becuase of the 'octomum' label. We're not told whether to two over 18 are working or claiming in their own right.

Whatever her sins, if there are any, the children should not be suffering for them.

What should happen next?

Should we show empathy and understanding or just condemn?

Isn’t the first question: “so, what is wrong with her/their lifestyle”?

 

[Bromptonaut]

Isn’t the first question: “so, what is wrong with her/their lifestyle”?

No; that approach is judgemental.

Perhaps a set of empathetic and or open questions that explore what happened over the 20 or so years since the eldest was conceived. At that stage Ms Buchan was only just an adult.

 

[theclaud]

And what is the story on Octodad? Oh, there isn't one, right... because there never is.

 

[Pale Rider]

Earlier today @shep posted about his lack of sympathy for a single mother of eight who had had her benefits cut:

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/mum-eight-marie-buchan-reveals-22272868

Not clear how Ms Buchan first found her way into the public consciousness but google offers multiple references to her as 'octomum' and benefit queen. It's not clear how she ended up with eight children though the eldest two are over 18 so no longer children.

Reports reference and income of approx £500/week - which would include her rent. A sense check says that looks about right in Tax Credits. If she's had to move to Universal Credit, where the Benefit Cap is applied much more aggressively, she'd be on less than £400. We're told she struggles to find work becuase of the 'octomum' label. We're not told whether to two over 18 are working or claiming in their own right.

Whatever her sins, if there are any, the children should not be suffering for them.

What should happen next?

Should we show empathy and understanding or just condemn?

I wondered what the total claim would be.

While I lack your direct experience of the system, I have seen a lot of female shoplifters with lots of children.

Eight is a good effort, but based on the financial statements of those defendants, my estimate would be about £500 a week, although I reckon rent and council tax may be paid on top of that.

As regards her public profile, it appears from the first few comments in the newspaper tale she has elected to seek publicity in various media, possibly in the hope of bringing forward offers of help.

She appears keen to work, but that is surely unrealistic.

Going on @Bromptonaut's lower estimate, is there any possibility of her obtaining a job paying £2K+ a month 'netto'?

I suppose it wouldn't be either or, and the system would attempt to make it worthwhile for her to work for a lower age by allowing her to keep some benefits.

Even then, there's childcare to consider which will not be cheap for one child, let alone however many are deemed to need it.

It might even be better for the children for her to continue to be available to look after them full time.

 

[theclaud]

Can anyone be sure that Ms Buchan has more children than the Prime Minister? She has the same number of children as Rod Stewart. And Mick Jagger. And - LOL - Clint Eastwood. Eddie Murphy has ten.

 

[Pale Rider]

Can anyone be sure that Ms Buchan has more children than the Prime Minister? She has the same number of children as Rod Stewart. And Mick Jagger. And - LOL - Clint Eastwood. Eddie Murphy has ten.

Presumably those you cite have the finances to look after their offspring, which is where many people will part company with Ms Buchan.

I'm old enough to remember male friends who said they were cutting down on pub time because 'we're saving up for a baby'.

How quaint.

 

[theclaud]

Presumably those you cite have the finances to look after their offspring, which is where many people will part company with Ms Buchan.

I'm old enough to remember male friends who said they were cutting down on pub time because 'we're saving up for a baby'.

How quaint.

What about the ones who have the finances but don't actually look after them?

 

[Bromptonaut]

I wondered what the total claim would be.

While I lack your direct experience of the system, I have seen a lot of female shoplifters with lots of children.

Eight is a good effort, but based on the financial statements of those defendants, my estimate would be about £500 a week, although I reckon rent and council tax may be paid on top of that.

As regards her public profile, it appears from the first few comments in the newspaper tale she has elected to seek publicity in various media, possibly in the hope of bringing forward offers of help.

She appears keen to work, but that is surely unrealistic.

Going on @Bromptonaut's lower estimate, is there any possibility of her obtaining a job paying £2K+ a month 'netto'?

I suppose it wouldn't be either or, and the system would attempt to make it worthwhile for her to work for a lower age by allowing her to keep some benefits.

Even then, there's childcare to consider which will not be cheap for one child, let alone however many are deemed to need it.

It might even be better for the children for her to continue to be available to look after them full time.

Only the six under 18 would qualify for Child Tax Credit or for the Child Element in Universal Credit. As in my OP £500 looks about right on tax credits and JSA. Because of the Cap she'd lose all but 50p of Housing Benefit but would still need to pay the rent in full and, in most places, a contribution to Council Tax.

She'd be expected to look for work but only outside school time as the youngest is under 13. That doesn't stop her taking work and paying for childcare, with support in UC or Tax Credits, but the cost would likely be prohibitive.

If however she could find 16hours a week @ £9/hr then she'd be a lot better off as she'd escape the cap.

OTOH with 6 school age children, even without pandemic related issues at school, would she have satisfactory attendance?

 

[BoldonLad]

No; that approach is judgemental.

Perhaps a set of empathetic and or open questions that explore what happened over the 20 or so years since the eldest was conceived. At that stage Ms Buchan was only just an adult.

Judgemental? I wasn’t making a judgement, I was querying if any of us (including you) should be doing so, by analysis this lady’s lifestyle choices.

 

[BoldonLad]

What about the ones who have the finances but don't actually look after them?

Surely, failing to “look after” your offspring is to be deplored, regardless of financial worth?

 

[Bromptonaut]

Judgemental? I wasn’t making a judgement, I was querying if any of us (including you) should be doing so, by analysis this lady’s lifestyle choices.

The question “so, what is wrong with her/their lifestyle?” is, in and of itself, judgmental.

 

[mudsticks]

Earlier today @shep posted about his lack of sympathy for a single mother of eight who had had her benefits cut:

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/mum-eight-marie-buchan-reveals-22272868

Not clear how Ms Buchan first found her way into the public consciousness but google offers multiple references to her as 'octomum' and benefit queen. It's not clear how she ended up with eight children though the eldest two are over 18 so no longer children.

Reports reference and income of approx £500/week - which would include her rent. A sense check says that looks about right in Tax Credits. If she's had to move to Universal Credit, where the Benefit Cap is applied much more aggressively, she'd be on less than £400. We're told she struggles to find work becuase of the 'octomum' label. We're not told whether to two over 18 are working or claiming in their own right.

Whatever her sins, if there are any, the children should not be suffering for them.

What should happen next?

Should we show empathy and understanding or just condemn?

Her main 'sin' it would appear is fecundity..

But we do have such a messed up attitude to motherhood..

"The blessed (virgin) Madonna.

"Motherhood is the most important job, in the world let's even send a mawkish card to that end.."

"Producing the next generation, all that pregnancy and labour gone through, sleep deprivation the endless round of care and attention..

So selfless , so marvellous.."


But no not like that !!!

You irresponsible 'out of control woman!!'

I'm not surprised she's looking for a job, it would no doubt be a rest from the job she's already got.

If she'd adopted all these eight kids, she'd be portrayed as some kind of motherly nurturing Saint of course.

So what is it..??

Her own personal fertility, and reproductive rate, that's such a problem??

Rather a poor effort compared with many of our great grandmother's.

'Octomum' would have been considered a little slow, in comparison measured alongside..

No mention of the father(s)..

Of course not..

I mean what are they supposed to do, when faced with such active ovaries??

Who knows those guys track record??


Anyhows up this is all a bit of a preamble to pondering the all important Venn diagram overlap.

"Too many caucasian babes, you feckless wench"

And

"This country is being overrun by brown people, we're going to be a minority before you know it"

Aand we could always make it a threesome with the ..

"Women shouldn't have access to free birth control, and terminations on demand, they should just learn to keep their legs together."

Still not much commentary on the abuse she has received regarding all this.

But that's just every grist to the mill right??

Judgemental? I wasn’t making a judgement, I was querying if any of us (including you) should be doing so, by analysis this lady’s lifestyle choices.

You're right we should just leave her be to get on with the very important job of mothering.

And doing it as best she can, if we're going by 'appearances' alone.

 

[BoldonLad]

The question “so, what is wrong with her/their lifestyle?” is, in and of itself, judgmental.

I see…. So asking “what should happen next, should we show empathy… etc”, is not calling for any “judgement” then? Why can’t we just leave the lady (and the father(s), absent or present) in question to “do it their way”?, without commenting.

 

[Bromptonaut]

I see…. So asking “what should happen next, should we show empathy… etc”, is not calling for any “judgement” then? Why can’t we just leave the lady in question to “do it her way”?, without commenting.

My apologies. I misunderstood what is wrong with her/their lifestyle as meaning they had gone wrong and we were asked to speculate on how.