War with Russia

[Deleted member 49]

Russia invaded an independent country, deliberately devastated cities, killed thousands of civilians, committed war crimes, kidnapped thousands of civilians has broken temporary ceasefires to allow civilians safe passage out of cities, has pulled out of peace talks until it strengthens its hand by creating even more devastation, has now started false flag tactics to justify threatening Moldova, yet somehow the blame is with Biden and the West.

There is only one side threatening the use of nuclear weapons, including the recent bigging-up of the Satan 2 missile ..just a clue, it is not the US or UK.

Ukraine was not going to join NATO. The dangers of such a move were recognised, and NATO has not been an existential threat to Russia except in Putin's paranoia and spin for home consumption. Why do you think Finland and Sweden are now actively considering joining NATO...not because they want to threaten Russia but because they have seen how ruthless Russia can be when it wants to, and fear for their own borders.

I dread the idea of WW3 because no one will win and millions will die, and peace talks are absolutely
essential, but it takes two, or more, including the nation which has so far been the aggressor and which so far shows no enthusiasm for talking or stopping the violence, This is not Biden's fault, even through the narrowest anti-US, left-wing blinkers and Russia has long since stopped being any sort of "peoples" republic.

I believe the West will, and probably realistically has to, blink first despite the dangerous rhetoric from idiots like Truss, and Russia will get away with splitting a neighbouring country, just like we did a hundred years ago, to our shame, but I believe it will not stop there and I fear for the borders of other neighbouring countries against an emboldened Russia/Putin.

Oh feck off with the "left wing blinkers" and "the blame lies with Biden" shite....you tell me how it ends without the patronizing lesson in war history.
Let's be clear do I think Russia is wrong....of course I do ! This has nothing to do with your fixation on left and right
.

Yebbut it's all the fault of NATO/US. Stands to reason.

You can critizise NATO/US and not be a Putin apologist you know.
Meanwhile you offer no solution other than more war 🙄

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

Yebbut it's all the fault of NATO/US. Stands to reason.

No it's Russia seeing countries like Ukraine not independent countries but more like Russian counties, just like they where in Sovjet area. Applying to join the Nato is an choice an country has to make.
The pressure Russia is enacting which now has led to both Finland and Sweden very likely to apply is not justified, they are not in control of their neighbors countries decisions. And i certainly doesn't justify and genocide an invasion.

Did they learn any lessons though?
The T72's pop-off turret was first noticed as a feature on Iraqi examples in the 1991 Gulf war and thirty years later they're still doing it.

The newer T90's and t80's too, but the core is, russia does'nt really care about soldiers or human life. They are replaceable, and that's how their tanks are made. In the great tank battle of the first golf war that was very clear, American tanks outnumbered the sovjet tanks Hussein bought, still not match for fewer but much stronger us leopard tanks, in all fairness then being the first with gps helped too.

Most turret pop off are caused by the ammonution exploding btw. the newer ones have some protection but still not enough.

In the great winter war against Finland it was the same principle, Russia was'nt good in fighting or anything else it where the numbers that created the advanceds that also what w see in Ukraine today but because there lacking the numbers they move forward but don't guard what they leave behind, meaning that most maps are highly inaccurate as control over the front line does'nt mean control behind the front line, that also explain why they loose so many verhicles. apart from the underestimating of the enemy.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Oh feck off with the "left wing blinkers" and "the blame lies with Biden" shite....you tell me how it ends without the patronizing lesson in war history.
Let's be clear do I think Russia is wrong....of course I do ! This has nothing to do with your fixation on left and right
.

You can critizise NATO/US and not be a Putin apologist you know.
Meanwhile you offer no solution other than more war 🙄

I think your views have a lot to do with your ideological fixation on US and NATO.

You seem to be able to say that Putin's Russia is bad because that is obvious to anyone, but you do not seem able to actually put the blame on Russia for kicking off this war, sorry, "special operation", nor for not taking peace talks seriously.

If you actually read my last paragraph above before spitting out your dummy nowhere have I said there is no solution other than war but unlike you I do not think the answer is just as simple as the US pushing Russia for more peace talks. There will be no progress without the heavily armed aggressor being prepared to enter, genuinely, into peace talks. And probably, realistically, for Zelensky to make some very difficult concessions.

 

[Deleted member 49]

I think your views have a lot to do with your ideological fixation on US and NATO.

Lol...more your fixation.Unless you can show me where ?

You seem to be able to say that Putin is bad because that is obvious to anyone, but you do not seem able to actually put the blame on Russia for kicking off this war, sorry, "special operation".

Again where have I said this ?

 

[Rusty Nails]

Lol...more your fixation.Unless you can show me where ?

Again where have I said this ?

Ooh, a fixation-off.

I amended my post before you replied to change "Putin" to "Putin's Russia", and I admit you said "wrong" and not "bad".
Just to clarify do you put the blame for the invasion, aggression, and killing of civilians on Russia?

How exactly can the US persuade Russia to get serious about peace talks?

 

[Deleted member 49]

Just to clarify do you put the blame for the invasion, aggression, and killing of civilians on Russia?

Im not sure I've ever said different....but be my guest to show me ?
Or does that not suit your view of "the left" ?

 

[Rusty Nails]

Im not sure I've ever said different....but be my guest to show me ?
Or does that not suit your view of "the left" ?

I apologise for not reading into your posts that you put the blame for this war of aggression firmly on Russia.

Do you believe that other countries are wrong to supply military aid to Ukraine to defend themselves against a heavily armed aggressor, and also that the threat of nuclear weapons is being made solely by Russia?

Do you believe that Finland and Sweden are now wrong in looking more like they want to join NATO for self defence because of their concerns over Russia?

How exactly is Biden going to get Russia to seriously get involved in peace talks?

I have no particular concerns about the left, vs right, or socialism vs capitalism, other than that the extremes of either are equally dangerous.

 

[BoldonLad]

...........

I have no particular concerns about the left, vs right, or socialism vs capitalism, other than that the extremes of either are equally dangerous.

OMG, we agree on something.... I need a drink

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

According to the Anon hackers collective who have been hacking Russia since the start of the war Putin has Thyriod cancer, source: https://twitter.com/GroupAnon Please note that it's an anonymous twitters account, it could be true seeing as reportly they also hacked into Fsb, russian banks ect. and earlier proved this by publishing names of the soldiers that have participated in the Ukraine genocide but it's still a rumor. and likely the stay that way unless Putin dies very painfully anytime soon.

 

[Cirrus]

Putin has Thyriod cancer

That'll teach him to get on the wrong mount.

 

[FishFright]

This thread's gone quiet, but outside the rhetoric is heating-up.
Still not convinced this is going to end-up without direct NATO involvement in the fairly near future unless Putin is removed by his own.
Putin holds all the cards to keep this rolling along. I can't see him being ground down to the last tank - he will do something to which NATO will have to respond.
He must either be victorious or martyr to NATO aggression.

Has there not been enough blood spilled to satisfy your appetite?

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

Has there not been enough blood spilled to satisfy your appetite?

I guess it's an improvement from calling everyone ''idiots'' but what do you want? No matter what we discus here it's not going the change the course of action in Ukraine. you made it very clear earlier that you are against a full on war against Nato, i think everybody is, yet i also think it's unavoidable long term.
You are offcourse free to disagree with that but can you at least try to come up with arguments? instead off pointless questions about blood appetite, going there ourselves, us being idiots etc. like i said before i would proudly be called idiot if it means Russia pulling back and giving back their stolen land but i don't think it's going to happen, so what the point in these kind of questions? what do they contribute?

 

[FishFright]

I guess it's an improvement from calling everyone ''idiots'' but what do you want? No matter what we discus here it's not going the change the course of action in Ukraine. you made it very clear earlier that you are against a full on war against Nato, i think everybody is, yet i also think it's unavoidable long term.
You are offcourse free to disagree with that but can you at least try to come up with arguments? instead off pointless questions about blood appetite, going there ourselves, us being idiots etc. like i said before i would proudly be called idiot if it means Russia pulling back and giving back their stolen land but i don't think it's going to happen, so what the point in these kind of questions? what do they contribute?

It's not inevitable and is totally impossible, as it has been since the both sides built a huge arsenal of thermonuclear weapons.

The only way out is talk and talk some more .

What gets my goat is when there is a call from the sidelines for the spilling of other peoples blood with no desire to get their own blood spilled.
Cowardice of the lowest kind.

 

[Fab Foodie]

Has there not been enough blood spilled to satisfy your appetite?

We're not going to agree on this and you keep making this spurious claim that I want to see people die.
Neither do you proffer a solution except negotiation which is absolutely NOT going to happen whilst Putin is in charge. I think most analysts, commentators agree on this.
So, there are few choices left:

1. Putin Wins Eastern Ukraine and continues to destabilise Eu borders ad nauseum
2. The west keep pouring arms into Ukraine to defeat Russia which means 3 scenarios:
2a. Stalemate/war of attrition - long term deaths
2b. Ukraine start to win thanks to Western armaments and Putin goes chemical or pushes the N buttons - will he won't he?
2c. NATO actively becomes involved which ,may bring 2b but it will end sooner
3. We wait for Putin to die
4. We give him whatever he wants.

2b and 2c are predicated on whether the west believes that Putin really wants a Nuclear ending AND whether the chain of command allows this.

Death is inevitable, even if Ukraine surrenders....

Now let's hear your options....

 

[Fab Foodie]

It's not inevitable and is totally impossible, as it has been since the both sides built a huge arsenal of thermonuclear weapons.

What gets my goat is when there is a call from the sidelines for the spilling of other peoples blood with no desire to get their own blood spilled.
Cowardice of the lowest kind.

Nonsense.