War with Russia

[RecordAceFromNew]

God Almighty!

Pope Francis has said the “barking of NATO at the door of Russia” might have led to the invasion of Ukraine and that he didn't know whether other countries should supply Ukraine with more arms.

“In Ukraine, it was other states that created the conflict,” Pope Francis said in the interview, without identifying which states. He likened the war to other conflicts that he said were fomented by international interests: “Syria, Yemen, Iraq, one war after another in Africa.”

“I don’t know how to answer—I am too far away—whether it is right to supply the Ukrainians” with weapons, the pope said. “What’s clear is that in this land arms are being tested… Wars are fought for this: to test the arms we have made.”

As head of an authoritarian, single party state tolerating no dissent even on the existence of his invisible friend, he has the cheek to lecture democratically elected, upstanding leaders of the free world, like our Boris and Truss. Sitting behind Swiss mercenaries armed with lethal spears, he is nothing more than a hypocrite, spewing venom against Lockheed and our BAe. I trust you all agree, that we in the liberal West now have a duty to sanction the Vatican till it goes bust, freeze all wealth from all Catholics (espeically those who are rich AND powerful, like Biden; but not Boris, since he is neither rich, powerful nor practicing, afaict), and silence them as beligerent state sponsored actors. This comprehensive package of actions will uphold our rule based order, and hopoefully cause a regime change at the Holy See.

I think you all would also be gratified to know, that never mind our messaging, censorship has actually been working great even before our latest legislation - neither the ft nor the Guardian, like numerous msm on all sides of the political spectrum, has reported this travesty by the Pope, in case the weak of mind amongst you lot might succumb to such nonsense and be swayed.

For the man himself? Exactly like that RecordAceFromNew "Russian sleeper" in this Parish, the Pope is clearly a Putin apologist, conflating the war with the dastardly image below. I therefore feel sure, at the very least, that @Mr Celine and @BoldonLad would support his burning at stake...

Amen.

Bear baiting was a popular spectator sport, apparently. I can understand the motivation for the proprietor's, the bear's, and even the spectators' actions. The dogs', which usually die? Not so much.

I am reasonably confident that, in principle, we can all agree the bears are victims, and the dogs too, despite their foolishness.

What is strange, therefore, is that currently there are many fools who think only the dogs are victims, apparently because the bear was neither cornered nor poked. I don't know how, but somehow they must all think they have better insight on the subject than:

George Kennan (father of US strategy for the cold war)
Henry Kissinger (Secretary of State and National Secretary Advisor under Nixon and Ford)
Jack Matlock (US ambassador to USSR under Reagan and Bush Snr)
William Perry (US Defence Secretary under Clinton)
Bob Gates (US Defence Secretary under Bush Jnr and Obama)
Bill Burns (current director of CIA)
Malcolm Fraser (former Australian PM)
Paul Keating (former Australian PM)
etc. etc.

Just to help the fools, it would appear the most quoted opposing thought leader, if one can all it that, is apparently this. Like most if not all "our" mass media, she attributes the war to Putin's (unsavoury) personal characteristics. Funny that, since none of those on the prior list had any idea which Russian leader was going to pull the trigger, they just knew one would...

Which reminds me, how fools are made in the Anglophone West:

View attachment 861

 

[Mr Celine]

FTOF
I have an equal antipathy to all religious figureheads.
I will be calling on sanctions against the vatican when the pope starts shelling maternity hospitals.

 

[BoldonLad]

God Almighty!

Pope Francis has said the “barking of NATO at the door of Russia” might have led to the invasion of Ukraine and that he didn't know whether other countries should supply Ukraine with more arms.

“In Ukraine, it was other states that created the conflict,” Pope Francis said in the interview, without identifying which states. He likened the war to other conflicts that he said were fomented by international interests: “Syria, Yemen, Iraq, one war after another in Africa.”

“I don’t know how to answer—I am too far away—whether it is right to supply the Ukrainians” with weapons, the pope said. “What’s clear is that in this land arms are being tested… Wars are fought for this: to test the arms we have made.”

As head of an authoritarian, single party state tolerating no dissent even on the existence of his invisible friend, he has the cheek to lecture democratically elected, upstanding leaders of the free world, like our Boris and Truss. Sitting behind Swiss mercenaries armed with lethal spears, he is nothing more than a hypocrite, spewing venom against Lockheed and our BAe. I trust you all agree, that we in the liberal West now have a duty to sanction the Vatican till it goes bust, freeze all wealth from all Catholics (espeically those who are rich AND powerful, like Biden; but not Boris, since he is neither rich, powerful nor practicing, afaict), and silence them as beligerent state sponsored actors. This comprehensive package of actions will uphold our rule based order, and hopoefully cause a regime change at the Holy See.

I think you all would also be gratified to know, that never mind our messaging, censorship has actually been working great even before our latest legislation - neither the ft nor the Guardian, like numerous msm on all sides of the political spectrum, has reported this travesty by the Pope, in case the weak of mind amongst you lot might succumb to such nonsense and be swayed.

For the man himself? Exactly like that RecordAceFromNew "Russian sleeper" in this Parish, the Pope is clearly a Putin apologist, conflating the war with the dastardly image below. I therefore feel sure, at the very least, that @Mr Celine and @BoldonLad would support his burning at stake...

Amen.

I wouldn’t support burning anyone at the stake.

IMHO all religious leaders should desist from public utterances. They may of course, speak to their followers. They should not, however, be above the law of the state in which they make their utterances.

I see no reason to sanction or attack the Vatican, unless or until they invade another sovereign country, and murder that countries civilians.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

@RecordAceFromNew Making a post every so much weeks blaming the war on NATO or the us does'nt make your more or less correct your just repeating the same point over and over.
But one point you keep on repeating is simply not true, not my opinion, not the us, west etc's opinion but so says Mikhail Gorbachev, you know former president of the the sovjet union?
There never was an agreement for the Nato not the expand east.(or anywhere for that matter)
source:
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-f...ato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/

All the other points that America claims a certain action by a certain country will lead to ''escalation'' does'nt make Russia's actions right. And if the us does so it should be condemmed, but the us has'nt done anything to China or the Soloman Island and Russia stole a piece of land in 2014 and commited and is in the actually process of commiting genocide on Ukraine.
So that's an whole different story entirely

 

[Milzy]

I bet the Russian Iron Dome doesn’t even work anyway. If it wasn’t for JFK the Yanks would have nuked Russia all those years back & taken what ever was left.

 

[RecordAceFromNew]

@RecordAceFromNew Making a post every so much weeks blaming the war on NATO or the us does'nt make your more or less correct your just repeating the same point over and over.
But one point you keep on repeating is simply not true, not my opinion, not the us, west etc's opinion but so says Mikhail Gorbachev, you know former president of the the sovjet union?
There never was an agreement for the Nato not the expand east.(or anywhere for that matter)
source:
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-f...ato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/

If you can find my saying there was "an agreement for NATO not to expand East", let alone repeating it, do show. If you can't, please don't misquote me just to make a point that found your favour.

Notwithstanding, that 2014 Brookings article you rely on is disingeneous at best. In case you have not noticed, the key sentence in the article contains two apparently opposing narratives attributed to the same Gorbachev:

"To be sure, the former Soviet president criticized NATO enlargement and called it 'a violation of the spirit of the assurances given Moscow in 1990', but

he made clear there was no promise regarding broader enlargement."

Note the first contains a direct quote. The second is only the article author's own words, not what Gorbachev said.

If you had looked, you would have found a whole bunch of US, British and other diplomatic records have since been declassified for all to see, proving the Russians were indeed misled on NATO expansion Eastward:

"The documents show that multiple national leaders were considering and rejecting Central and Eastern European membership in NATO as of early 1990 and through 1991, that discussions of NATO in the context of German unification negotiations in 1990 were not at all narrowly limited to the status of East German territory, and that subsequent Soviet and Russian complaints about being misled about NATO expansion were founded in written contemporaneous memcons and telcons at the highest levels.

The documents reinforce former CIA Director Robert Gates’s criticism of “pressing ahead with expansion of NATO eastward [in the 1990s], when Gorbachev and others were led to believe that wouldn’t happen.”

As the documents show, there was not just one, but a cascade of the same assurance by Western leaders. For example, according to the diary of the British ambassador to Moscow, British Prime Minister John Major personally assured Gorbachev, “We are not talking about the strengthening of NATO.” Subsequently, when Soviet defense minister Marshal Dmitri Yazov asked Major about East European leaders’ interest in NATO membership, the British leader responded, “Nothing of the sort will happen.”

Today's mess not only has fundamental roots in Gorbachev being seriously misled, other declassified documents show the deception of Yeltsin and subsequent cover-up by those responsible was perhaps even more egregious, from the Russian standpoint.

The key issue of relevance however, is Western leaders knew full well serious consequences will follow, as the string of senior officials/diplomats have warned and clearly documented. As leader of NATO, the US government pressed ahead anyway. Even certain US Senator nobody heard of in 1997 knew this, in the context of the smaller and less strategic Baltic States potentially joining NATO, which eventually did happen in 2004:

The link to the full video is given in this article. The hubris displayed e.g. from 21:21 to 23:40 is quite something, but helps to explain US foreign policy to this day.

 

[Mr Celine]

TL;DR

Someone is alleged to have reneged on an unwritten agreement made over 30 years ago. This gives the aggrieved party the right to bomb the civilians, schools and maternity hospitals of a third country which was not a party to that agreement.

 

[RecordAceFromNew]

TL;DR

Someone is alleged to have reneged on an unwritten agreement made over 30 years ago. This gives the aggrieved party the right to bomb the civilians, schools and maternity hospitals of a third country which was not a party to that agreement.

Sorry to ruin your fairytale worldview - in geopolitics, might is right sadly, for the US and even their allies certainly (just ask Blair), why not nuclear armed Russia?

Or are you saying compared to the US the Russian have been remarkably tolerant and patient, for 30 years, until trouble arrive at their front door?

 

[stephec]

@Milzy have you been to Russia?
Do you regularly talk to Russians?

What's it like when you've been there, I've never been myself but know two people who have?

One who I spoke to last week went to Siberia a while ago and was 'fined' in the street by a police officer for not wearing a hat, just as he was about to walk away another offence was somehow committed and he ended up paying another bribe, he's since told his boss that he refuses to go to Russia again.

Another bloke I met whilst working in Casablanca in 2001 told me a few things. He was invited to the house of one of the locals who he was working with, the meal he had was apparently not the best, but from the way they acted it was obvious that his hosts had really done their best for him.

He also told me about a trip to a casino where he was about £100 up, and as they were leaving a little boy came up begging so he reached in his pocket and gave him all the loose change that he had, as he's walking away the boy is chasing after him and shouting, thinking that he was after more money he was about to tell his interpreter to get rid of him, but the interpreter tells him that the boy says that he's given him too much and was trying to hand some money back, eventually they convinced the little lad to keep it all and share it with his family and friends, what a nice kid.

 

[Mr Celine]

Sorry to ruin your fairytale worldview - in geopolitics, might is right sadly, for the US and even their allies certainly (just ask Blair), why not nuclear armed Russia?

Or are you saying compared to the US the Russian have been remarkably tolerant and patient, for 30 years, until trouble arrive at their front door?

In your worldview where might is right Putin has demonstrated over the last three months that Russia posesses neither of those attributes.

The possession of nuclear weapons by an invading army is irrelevant. If there is any justification for nuclear weapons it is as a deterrent, a defensive weapon threatened to be used in retaliation to a first strike.

And would you really describe the reckless use of nerve agents in foreign countries as tolerant and patient?

 

[Unkraut]

Whilst I don't think this means war is actually expected, the Luftwaffe have been exercising over my village today. I haven't seen this quite literally for years.

 

[Fab Foodie]

What's it like when you've been there, I've never been myself but know two people who have?

One who I spoke to last week went to Siberia a while ago and was 'fined' in the street by a police officer for not wearing a hat, just as he was about to walk away another offence was somehow committed and he ended up paying another bribe, he's since told his boss that he refuses to go to Russia again.

Another bloke I met whilst working in Casablanca in 2001 told me a few things. He was invited to the house of one of the locals who he was working with, the meal he had was apparently not the best, but from the way they acted it was obvious that his hosts had really done their best for him.

He also told me about a trip to a casino where he was about £100 up, and as they were leaving a little boy came up begging so he reached in his pocket and gave him all the loose change that he had, as he's walking away the boy is chasing after him and shouting, thinking that he was after more money he was about to tell his interpreter to get rid of him, but the interpreter tells him that the boy says that he's given him too much and was trying to hand some money back, eventually they convinced the little lad to keep it all and share it with his family and friends, what a nice kid.

That's a big question!
I can only tell you my impressions based on my experiences of 10+ years travelling regularly to and working in Kaliningrad (which is a bit of an outlier in Russian terms), Efremov, and the outer-reaches of Moscow. I have spent one long weekend in central Moscow as a Tourist. I really wouldn't waste my own money to go there. St Petersburg may be a different matter.
As you know I work in food production plants, on the factory floor mostly, but I meet with the MDs down to the floor cleaners, so see a slice of life.
There are many positives on the surface, most people have accommodation that is warm and food to eat and work to do, but compared to life in the west, the standard of living for most people is pretty grim, life and work is hard. The apartments are dimly lit, run-down, furniture is cheap and basic. Roads and pavements etc. in poor states of repair in and around most living areas - main highways are generally OK. Where the govt. wants to put on a show it makes a very special effort. Kaliningrad was visually (cosmetically) transformed with the airport mostly finished after 8 years of being part built to host the Footie. Public transport on which the majority rely, just about works, overcrowded and ageing, but it gets-by. Car ownership is for the few.

In the factories long hours are worked, despite there being twice a many people to do the work as would be done elsewhere*, at breaktime many just sleep in the changing rooms - not something I see elsewhere. People generally appear very down and miserable, not much laughter or banter compared to non-Russian factories. Ownership matters, those in lets say International hands have better facilities and treat staff better than Russian-owned. Outside of the bigger conurbations, hotels and eateries are very basic. Hotel rooms are sparse and most have very basic food preparation facilities. International companies outside of major cities have to put a lot into local infrastructure if they expect a lot of non-Russians to operate there with some degree of comfort.
The Russian workplace is very hierarchical and visible kicking down the chain is very apparent - it shows others not to step out of line. Initiative seems beaten out of people, they do what they're told until it's time to go home.
In the big hotels particularly the non-international brands, you can see the fear on the waiting staff that they may drop a fork or not remove a finished plate exactly as instructed. We used to say if you accidently knocked a fork off the table it would be caught before it hit the ground. The Russians staying in these hotels generally treat the staff like shoot. Money and status is to be obeyed. It's not pretty. We are gently instructed as western 'visitors' not to smile, it shows weakness....
Misogeny, Racism and homophobia abound. If you're woman, looks really help attract a wealthier husband/'better life, but wife beating is still legal in Russia and common-place. A very beautiful gentle lady I was working with at one of the factories, was so abused by her husband that she set fire to herself and died.
You soon realise there are 2 systems at play with everything, the 'Official Way' and the unofficial that get's things done....

I mentioned earlier that the military and Russia's 'Strength' is held on a pedestal. As we can see, the reality is (as with much in Russia) very different from that portrayed. Among the rank-and-file Russians, the message is swallowed hook-line and sinker. However, as more Russian acquire wealth, work with International companies and travel overseas, the strength of the message is getting diluted. The lies are being seen through, but the options to make any meaningful change is limited.

But what of the people?
Was talking to a Navy guy at the weekend who said 'I hate Russians', I was interrupted before I could put him straight. In general and I admit at relatively face-value most appear decent people. It takes a while to get to know them, especially those shall we say on the lower pay scales (who often speak little English) or with less opportunities, but kindness and respect goes a long way and behind the stern facades they're nice people operating in a hard environment. They are proud, loyal, and tough. They have a can-do attitude when it's needed (or when instructed). I have a lot of admiration for the Russian people. The sooner they are stopped being hoodwinked the better.

I don't miss going there. Initially it was fun, after a while, you get worn-down by the place. It has been a great experience and privilege to have worked there, but it's hard.

*this is a common theme in many parts of Russia to keep people employed. Airports are a prime example, inefficiency by overmanning!

 

[BoldonLad]

That's a big question!
I can only tell you my impressions based on my experiences of 10+ years travelling regularly to and working in Kaliningrad (which is a bit of an outlier in Russian terms), Efremov, and the outer-reaches of Moscow. I have spent one long weekend in central Moscow as a Tourist. I really wouldn't waste my own money to go there. St Petersburg may be a different matter.
As you know I work in food production plants, on the factory floor mostly, but I meet with the MDs down to the floor cleaners, so see a slice of life.
There are many positives on the surface, most people have accommodation that is warm and food to eat and work to do, but compared to life in the west, the standard of living for most people is pretty grim, life and work is hard. The apartments are dimly lit, run-down, furniture is cheap and basic. Roads and pavements etc. in poor states of repair in and around most living areas - main highways are generally OK. Where the govt. wants to put on a show it makes a very special effort. Kaliningrad was visually (cosmetically) transformed with the airport mostly finished after 8 years of being part built to host the Footie. Public transport on which the majority rely, just about works, overcrowded and ageing, but it gets-by. Car ownership is for the few.

In the factories long hours are worked, despite there being twice a many people to do the work as would be done elsewhere*, at breaktime many just sleep in the changing rooms - not something I see elsewhere. People generally appear very down and miserable, not much laughter or banter compared to non-Russian factories. Ownership matters, those in lets say International hands have better facilities and treat staff better than Russian-owned. Outside of the bigger conurbations, hotels and eateries are very basic. Hotel rooms are sparse and most have very basic food preparation facilities. International companies outside of major cities have to put a lot into local infrastructure if they expect a lot of non-Russians to operate there with some degree of comfort.
The Russian workplace is very hierarchical and visible kicking down the chain is very apparent - it shows others not to step out of line. Initiative seems beaten out of people, they do what they're told until it's time to go home.
In the big hotels particularly the non-international brands, you can see the fear on the waiting staff that they may drop a fork or not remove a finished plate exactly as instructed. We used to say if you accidently knocked a fork off the table it would be caught before it hit the ground. The Russians staying in these hotels generally treat the staff like shoot. Money and status is to be obeyed. It's not pretty. We are gently instructed as western 'visitors' not to smile, it shows weakness....
Misogeny, Racism and homophobia abound. If you're woman, looks really help attract a wealthier husband/'better life, but wife beating is still legal in Russia and common-place. A very beautiful gentle lady I was working with at one of the factories, was so abused by her husband that she set fire to herself and died.
You soon realise there are 2 systems at play with everything, the 'Official Way' and the unofficial that get's things done....

I mentioned earlier that the military and Russia's 'Strength' is held on a pedestal. As we can see, the reality is (as with much in Russia) very different from that portrayed. Among the rank-and-file Russians, the message is swallowed hook-line and sinker. However, as more Russian acquire wealth, work with International companies and travel overseas, the strength of the message is getting diluted. The lies are being seen through, but the options to make any meaningful change is limited.

But what of the people?
Was talking to a Navy guy at the weekend who said 'I hate Russians', I was interrupted before I could put him straight. In general and I admit at relatively face-value most appear decent people. It takes a while to get to know them, especially those shall we say on the lower pay scales (who often speak little English) or with less opportunities, but kindness and respect goes a long way and behind the stern facades they're nice people operating in a hard environment. They are proud, loyal, and tough. They have a can-do attitude when it's needed (or when instructed). I have a lot of admiration for the Russian people. The sooner they are stopped being hoodwinked the better.

I don't miss going there. Initially it was fun, after a while, you get worn-down by the place. It has been a great experience and privilege to have worked there, but it's hard.

*this is a common theme in many parts of Russia to keep people employed. Airports are a prime example, inefficiency by overmanning!

My experience is not as recent as yours (1990's), but, it sounds like little has changed.

One of my most memorable experiences was going to buy and post a card, to my kids. I had to stand in a long queue to buy the card, the, another long queue to buy the stamp, then, another long queue for a very elderly lady to apply some adhesive to the back of the stamp and put it on the card. That was in St Petersburg

 

[Fab Foodie]

My experience is not as recent as yours (1990's), but, it sounds like little has changed.

One of my most memorable experiences was going to buy and post a card, to my kids. I had to stand in a long queue to buy the card, the, another long queue to buy the stamp, then, another long queue for a very elderly lady to apply some adhesive to the back of the stamp and put it on the card. That was in St Petersburg

Found a photo of the 'Prussian' style waterfront Hotel I originally stayed-at in Kaliningrad, at the time the best hotel in town. Great in the summer to sit out and watch the world go by....

The photo is interesting because either side you see the typical prefab apartments that most live in just behind the nice facade. Lots of swanky new apartments exists now for the well heeled. Some of these old ones that look like new were facelifted/recladded for the footie, because they were on the main routes from airport to stadium.

 

[AuroraSaab]

That was a fascinating account, Fab Foodie. I went to Russia on holiday in the 1980's. Wonderful trip but wouldn't want to live there. Stunning buildings like the Winter Palace and the monasteries, juxtaposed with mile after mile of grim concrete high rises. And yes, queueing for everything, and 3 queues to pay for anything. Got the train from Moscow to Leningrad and passed through grim industrial town after grim industrial town, with bleak landscapes in between. The packed lunch consisted of a dried fish between 2 slices of white bread. If you went to the dining car you had to jump between the carriages like on a Wild West train. Nice people, loads of corruption. They took my very early Viz comics from me at customs at Moscow Airport too lol. Those are worth about £2 now, so I'm still fuming....