Oh no!! Brexit not going quite as well as hoped

[farfromtheland]

Brexit will not bring about the collapse of consumerism or capitalism. It will not see the UK become a self sufficient Garden of Eden. Anyone that voted thinking it would is going to be desperately disappointed.
It's increasing pollution, increasing the UKs carbon output and increasing food poverty. Just as was predicted.

I didn't have any such high expectations. The lack of planning for Brexit's aftermath has been culpable. I admit I was rather more hopeful of a more socialist approach though.

The pollution isn't caused by Brexit though - ultimately it's caused by unsustainable trade systems, to which the EU subscribes. International corporate trade blocks and local food growing are pretty well diametrically opposed. The EU poses as environmentally progressive but acts protectionist. Its loan model of funding climate reparations to developing countries is a bit nasty too, to my mind.

 

[Mugshot]

The pollution isn't caused by Brexit though - ultimately it's caused by unsustainable trade systems, to which the EU subscribes. International corporate trade blocks and local food growing are pretty well diametrically opposed. The EU poses as environmentally progressive but acts protectionist. Its loan model of funding climate reparations to developing countries is a bit nasty too, to my mind.

I'd say cutting trade with your neighbours to make half arsed deals with countries on the opposite side of the globe would add to pollution, as would having dirty great queues of lorries, on both sides of the channel. Of course, they can turn their engines off, but I'd imagine they need to keep warm, add in the human waste factor too for good measure. That's caused by Brexit, directly.

I admit I was rather more hopeful of a more socialist approach though.

You were hoping for a socialist solution to a problem, created, stoked, paid for, generally voted for, and ultimately rammed through parliament by right wing headbangers?

 

[Deleted member 49]

There isn't a single positive of Brexit under this goverment as far as I can see ? Every promise was a lie.

 

[Mugshot]

There isn't a single positive of Brexit under this goverment as far as I can see ? Every promise was a lie.

And every lie was pointed out, over and over again.

 

[farfromtheland]

You were hoping for a socialist solution to a problem, created, stoked, paid for, generally voted for, and ultimately rammed through parliament by right wing headbangers?

Not a socialist solution no - I think Jeremy Corbyn is a social democrat, but rather more socialist, yes. We might well have had the energy firms taken into public ownership with huge environmental benefits.

I'd say cutting trade with your neighbours to make half arsed deals with countries on the opposite side of the globe would add to pollution, as would having dirty great queues of lorries, on both sides of the channel. Of course, they can turn their engines off, but I'd imagine they need to keep warm, add in the human waste factor too for good measure. That's caused by Brexit, directly.

Indirectly surely, by bad planning and mismanagement?

As for the trade deals I'm equivocal. If there's skill sharing I'm all for it, especially with India. It doesn't necessarily imply import/export of goods, though I see there is a problem with that. Another big motivation for me to want to leave the EU was its prioritising migration by caucasian people but not brown people.

 

[Mugshot]

Not a socialist solution no - I think Jeremy Corbyn is a social democrat, but rather more socialist, yes. We might well have had the energy firms taken into public ownership with huge environmental benefits.

A socialist agenda, delivered by a socialist government, achieved by voting for Brexit?

Indirectly surely, by bad planning and mismanagement?

Directly. Predicted, denied, but delivered. It was never planned, it was always mismanaged, it still is.

As for the trade deals I'm equivocal. If there's skill sharing I'm all for it, especially with India. It doesn't necessarily imply import/export of goods, though I see there is a problem with that. Another big motivation for me to want to leave the EU was its prioritising migration by caucasian people at the expense of brown people.

I'm confused by this I'm sorry.
Any trade deal with India was always going to be dependant on more visas being offered, I have no problem with that, but a trade deal with India is likely to be far more carbon heavy. I don't see how you can think that there would be an exchange of labour without goods too. There's also the issue with the rich West creating a brain drain.

 

[farfromtheland]

A socialist agenda, delivered by a socialist government, achieved by voting for Brexit?

Quite a few socialists thought Brexit had possibilities. Quite a few Northerners with socialist roots particularly. Independence from Europe with socialist policies did look possible, and would have been a good outcome.

Directly. Predicted, denied, but delivered. It was never planned, it was always mismanaged, it still is.

It didn't have to be mismanaged. I think government incompetence is largely to blame.

I'm confused by this I'm sorry.
Any trade deal with India was always going to be dependant on more visas being offered, I have no problem with that, but a trade deal with India is likely to be far more carbon heavy. I don't see how you can think that there would be an exchange of labour without goods too. There's also the issue with the rich West creating a brain drain.

I had a solar energy engineer from India staying in my house at the time. I think a trade deal could be carbon progressive - joint technological projects encouraging divestment from coal and learning from the small manufacturing movement in India. I think we are likely to gain from India's brainpower, yes, but with more of mutual benefit likely, if we approach problems with a global environmental concern. If Indian small scale production models are used to regenerate UK manufacturing and UK academic engineering expertise gets to India it's a win-win.

 

[swansonj]

A socialist agenda, delivered by a socialist government, achieved by voting for Brexit?
...

Agreed that Brexit, delivered in the circumstances that prevailed, was never going have any remotely left-leaning consequences.

But there was a respectable argument that the EU was a mixed blessing for any seriously left-leaning country, and a left-wing case could have been made for leaving, had the circumstances been very, very different.

 

[Deleted member 49]

I'd of took leave with a Corbyn lead goverment without a second thought.There could of been a far better outcome than what we've ended up with.

 

[Mugshot]

Quite a few socialists thought Brexit had possibilities. Quite a few Northerners with socialist roots particularly. Independence from Europe with socialist policies did look possible, and would have been a good outcome.

No doubt, although it's well documented that the primary driver behind Brexit was immigration, not socialism. I suspect that had "More visas for the Indian subcontinent" been written on the side of a bus, it would never have won the vote.

It didn't have to be mismanaged. I think government incompetence is largely to blame.

I have to disagree, it could only win if it involved a total fabrication of what the consequences would be. The result was always going to be mismanagement, because the result could never be managed, as we've seen.

I had a solar energy engineer from India staying in my house at the time. I think a trade deal could be carbon progressive - joint technological projects encouraging divestment from coal and learning from the small manufacturing movement in India. I think we are likely to gain from India's brainpower, yes, but with more of mutual benefit likely, if we approach problems with a global environmental concern. If Indian small scale production models are used to regenerate UK manufacturing and UK academic engineering expertise gets to India it's a win-win.

I'd be happy with that.

 

[farfromtheland]

... and a left-wing case could have been made for leaving, had the circumstances been very, very different.

The trouble with that for me is that if we always vote for less than we believe in we'll never get anything like what we believe in.

Also, just because Farage and the Tory Glory Boys were playing up to a xenophobe agenda, to win the marginal votes probably, as tends to happen in the UK's caricature of politics, it doesn't mean the vast majority of Brexit voters were actually motivated by xenophobia. Even if some were, that shouldn't mean I should compromise my beliefs and vote for something I don't want for quite different reasons. If I did, then prejudice would still have been the motivating factor, even if at a distance once removed.

 

[Mugshot]

The trouble with that for me is that if we always vote for less than we believe in we'll never get anything like what we believe in.

Have you got anything like what you believe in?

 

[farfromtheland]

It's potentially more like what I believe in. Remain, as presented by those comfortable with corporate EU lobbying culture, looked dishonest in essence to me. I heard far more remain supporters crying 'racism' than I did leavers actually being racist.

We'd have had no chance to take back the energy industry and transport for public good. Long way to go now, yes, but even longer within the EU I think.

 

[mudsticks]

Brexit will not bring about the collapse of consumerism or capitalism. It will not see the UK become a self sufficient Garden of Eden. Anyone that voted thinking it would is going to be desperately disappointed.
It's increasing pollution, increasing the UKs carbon output and increasing food poverty. Just as was predicted.

The fact that the UK gov is seriously considering letting in gene editing tech, and is permitting use of pollinator disruptor neonics into UK ag, and sewage into watercourses, where they were previously far more restricted under the EU are just a few of many indicators of how the environment is less, not more protected after brexit.

Of course not everything under the CAP or indeed the EU is perfect, economically or socially, but we find ourselves in a far less safe position now, with environmental deregulation in areas previously disallowed under the EU..

 

[farfromtheland]

The fact that the UK gov is seriously considering letting in gene editing tech, and is permitting use of pollinator disruptor neonics into UK ag, and sewage into watercourses, where they were previously far more restricted under the EU are just a few of many indicators of how the environment is less, not more protected after brexit.

Of course not everything under the CAP or indeed the EU is perfect, economically or socially, but we find ourselves in a far less safe position now, with environmental deregulation in areas previously disallowed under the EU..

These considerations were what made the Brexit vote difficult for me, along with some protection for workers' and disability rights. Since I long ago became convinced the only real way to protect ourselves at work and in society is to organise and take action I took the view that environmental action too was the best protection.