Is the Green Agenda the new battleground for Brexiteers?

[Deleted member 49]

Sadly there are too many people who see just the surface bonhomie and smiling bluster of shallow populists like Farage and Johnson, thinking that they are just good blokes they could enjoy going down the pub with and cracking a few non-pc jokes, and don't look any deeper than that.

The irony is that, other than on the campaign trail, those two public school boys would not be seen dead with ordinary working people.

Men of the people.....or couldn't organize a p1ss up in a brewery 🙄

To be fair they have cut tax on champagne to help those struggling on Universal Credit.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Men of the people.....or couldn't organize a p1ss up in a brewery 🙄
View attachment 143
To be fair they have cut tax on champagne to help those struggling on Universal Credit.

I reckon Boris made sure his keg was empty and Rishi's was full, to get one over on him in the papers.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

How do you feel they suck?

Solar using battery vehicles as local storage to power heat pumps under weather compensation control heating low-temperature emitters looks pretty fantastic except for the purchase costs and complicated set up with conflicting advice: warmer, cheaper, lower-carbon and less faffing with controls once set up correctly.

Jup sounds great, but the problem is that there are very little situations where it really works well, estates in Germany, The Netherlands and many other countries where they build new estates with heatpump only heating are full of complaint from residents, Heatpumps are very noisy, the houses are too hot in summer and too cold in the winter. So in my view it isn't really and great technology for most things and certainly not to replace all gas boilers with.

It is possible to fit weather compensation controls to some recent gas boilers, which switches your heating from reacting to changes in room temperature with bursts of full-blast radiators maybe throttled by thermostatic valves to predicting from outdoor temperature what radiator temperature is needed, allowing modern boilers to modulate and condense optimally and avoiding the yoyoing you often get otherwise.

there also something called fuel cell which also can replace a gas bioler and pretty much works the same way as a gas bioler that would be a much better step than the heat pump, it uses gas but it can also run on bio gas(rng which is made from plant and animal was) here an example from manufacurere viesmann: https://www.viessmann.co.uk/products/combined-heat-and-power/fuel-cell/vitovalor/how-vitovalor-works

 

[newfhouse]

Are any of our Tory supporting contributors willing to defend the budget today?

It appears not

 

[Hitchington]

Sadly there are too many people who see just the surface bonhomie and smiling bluster of shallow populists like Farage and Johnson, thinking that they are just good blokes they could enjoy going down the pub with and cracking a few non-pc jokes, and don't look any deeper than that.

The irony is that, other than on the campaign trail, those two public school boys would not be seen dead with ordinary working people.

Quoted for truth.👍

 

[Hitchington]

It appears not

Their silence is deafening. DEAFENING!

 

[mudsticks]

Their silence is deafening. DEAFENING!
View attachment 147

Contemporary Conservative 'values' espouse untramelled capitalism, greed glorified, and endless dog eat dog competition.

Which is structurally incompatible with a socially just green agenda, that requires global justice , and cooperation..

Endless material 'growth' and what the western world sees as 'enrichment' is just not possible, for us all on a finite planet.

That's not to say we can't have 'abundance' , nor that we couldn't all be living well.
Contemporary sunlight, deep soils fresh water and natural processes already drive massive regenerative abundance on our planet.

We have the knowledge, and methodologies to harness this abundance using both contemporary tech and natural systems, without overusing or being greedy beyond our needs.

But to do it well we have to go far more down the cooperative route rather than what is contemporary fashionable selfishness .

 

[qigong chimp]

Men of the people.....or couldn't organize a p1ss up in a brewery 🙄
View attachment 143
To be fair they have cut tax on champagne to help those struggling on Universal Credit.

Looks for all the world as though Sunak is, er, well.. modesty forbids, into the bevvies of the poor..

 

[qigong chimp]

I'm thinking of starting a goat club anyhow.

What will be the rules of Goat Club?

 

[mudsticks]

What will be the rules of Goat Club?

As any damn fule know..

You've just broken the first rule..

🦙🦙🦙🦙🦙🦙🥺

 

[mjr]

Jup sounds great, but the problem is that there are very little situations where it really works well, estates in Germany, The Netherlands and many other countries where they build new estates with heatpump only heating are full of complaint from residents, Heatpumps are very noisy, the houses are too hot in summer and too cold in the winter. So in my view it isn't really and great technology for most things and certainly not to replace all gas boilers with.

So is your view based only on some new estates where the developers probably did things on the cheap, with the bare minimum of insulation (hence too hot and too cold) and not bothering to specify quiet heatpumps? I wonder if they've even got modern computer controllers or just simple on/off all/nothing room thermostats. With any system, a half-assed installation would generate complaints: people complain if their gas boilers are bodged in new builds but that doesn't make people dismiss all gas boilers.

Even at full tilt, a good domestic heat pump will be less than 50 decibels at 1m, given as "conversation at home" in a noise example table, and less than a quarter the noise of a commercial air-con 30m away. I can't hear ours during the day over the not-particularly-loud loading/unloading noises from industrial units half a mile away. It doesn't run full tilt often (only in the final stages of heating a tank hot water or if it gets below -10°C outside) and most of those times it's when no-one is outside. The rest of the time, it spins more slowly. So I'll not dismiss them based on new-build installations probably specified on the cheap by people who won't have to live with their decisions, to take advantage of public ignorance and inexperience of what's possible.

there also something called fuel cell which also can replace a gas bioler and pretty much works the same way as a gas bioler that would be a much better step than the heat pump, it uses gas but it can also run on bio gas(rng which is made from plant and animal was) here an example from manufacurere viesmann: https://www.viessmann.co.uk/products/combined-heat-and-power/fuel-cell/vitovalor/how-vitovalor-works

Interesting, thanks, but it looks as big as an equivalent heat pump but seems only to give a 30% reduction in CO2 emissions?

 

[stowie]

there also something called fuel cell which also can replace a gas bioler and pretty much works the same way as a gas bioler that would be a much better step than the heat pump, it uses gas but it can also run on bio gas(rng which is made from plant and animal was) here an example from manufacurere viesmann: https://www.viessmann.co.uk/products/combined-heat-and-power/fuel-cell/vitovalor/how-vitovalor-works

The fuel cell that you have linked to uses Oxygen and Hydrogen. The biogas is converted into Hydrogen and carbon monoxide which is then scrubbed to turn it to carbon dioxide.

The efficiencies of these systems is good, but I don't see how it is carbon neutral.

The other method of providing hydrogen appears to be hydrogen from natural gas which - in the words of the website - "is derived from an earlier process". I think that is a way of saying it comes from steam reformation using one of these

The big problems with Hydrogen is there is virtually no infrastructure for the distribution that would be required, and the vast majority of hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels. The fossil fuel industry is pushing hydrogen hard, with some rather euphemistic terminology for the methods of hydrogen production. All of which are specifically designed to abstract away the rather non climate-change friendly way of producing it.

There are other options. For example we could use excess electricity from renewables to crack water into hydrogen and oxygen. Challenges abound with this scenario but I am hopeful it will be one way of managing our energy economy. For example, there is an abundance of energy available from solar, but not generally in the same place as would need a lot of hydrogen. Having solar farms in a desert is fine, but the hydrogen needs to get transported, and this is an element with challenges (see Hindenburg).

I actually think hydrogen will be an important part of the energy economy in the future. But it is quite a long way off, and a variety of energy production and storage solutions will be needed to transition - including heatpumps and a myriad of other techniques. Oh, and the hydrogen economy needs to be based upon clean renewable technology from source, not a fig leaf from the fossil fuel companies to hide behind.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

So is your view based only on some new estates where the developers probably did things on the cheap, with the bare minimum of insulation (hence too hot and too cold) and not bothering to specify quiet heatpumps? I wonder if they've even got modern computer controllers or just simple on/off all/nothing room thermostats. With any system, a half-assed installation would generate complaints: people complain if their gas boilers are bodged in new builds but that doesn't make people dismiss all gas boilers.

i have so far only read negative responses but most of them are either converted houses or the examples above, so yes you could be right that's it's all down to bad execution, but they also means it has the be done better, otherwise even if all houses are converted it would'nt make an difference.

Even at full tilt, a good domestic heat pump will be less than 50 decibels at 1m, given as "conversation at home" in a noise example table, and less than a quarter the noise of a commercial air-con 30m away. I can't hear ours during the day over the not-particularly-loud loading/unloading noises from industrial units half a mile away. It doesn't run full tilt often (only in the final stages of heating a tank hot water or if it gets below -10°C outside) and most of those times it's when no-one is outside. The rest of the time, it spins more slowly. So I'll not dismiss them based on new-build installations probably specified on the cheap by people who won't have to live with their decisions, to take advantage of public ignorance and inexperience of what's possible.

ok read like you have first hand experience? i haven't i just read a lot about the downsides so that's why in my opinion other options should at the very least been looked on.

Interesting, thanks, but it looks as big as an equivalent heat pump but seems only to give a 30% reduction in CO2 emissions?

It's the first example that i could find, mind you that this is also targeted at replacing an existing gas installation being able to run on both natural gas as biogas, so i guess the reductions would be better with a other type of fuel cell but there are so many and there is so much intended and unintended misinformation on this subject unfortunately. Begin 2000's for example Shell was sponsoring a project focusing on combustion engine cars to run on fuel cell, they had working prototypes, yet the project has been shelved.(for unknown reasons)

The fuel cell that you have linked to uses Oxygen and Hydrogen. The biogas is converted into Hydrogen and carbon monoxide which is then scrubbed to turn it to carbon dioxide.

The efficiencies of these systems is good, but I don't see how it is carbon neutral.

The other method of providing hydrogen appears to be hydrogen from natural gas which - in the words of the website - "is derived from an earlier process". I think that is a way of saying it comes from steam reformation using one of these

View attachment 148

Yes likely that they mean one of those systems.

The big problems with Hydrogen is there is virtually no infrastructure for the distribution that would be required, and the vast majority of hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels. The fossil fuel industry is pushing hydrogen hard, with some rather euphemistic terminology for the methods of hydrogen production. All of which are specifically designed to abstract away the rather non climate-change friendly way of producing it.

Infrastructure can be build, it just asks for the right questions and investments. California has for example a whole infrastructure for car feuling hydrogen instead of petrol. (their site cafcp.org ) which in term runs on eletric. if i see the Mercedes eVito has a range of barely 250 miles i don't see how you can use that commercially, but the same range with fuel cell would work, as the fueling is not(much) slower then petrol although the range if the same for fuel cell and battery is still quite low.
I agree with you on the fossil fuel industry, i found it quite hard to find reliable information also because of this. but battery production is also not climate friendly and a battery pack doesn't last that long unfortnually so it's stays a bit of a tradeoff. but i thing building the infrastructure now would be a better option than gambling a etrucks and evans having a decent range within the next few years. it would also be nice to put an light onto why fuel cell combustion cars conversion has been shelved.(as it was sponsored by shell which also owns eletric charging stations my question would be whether it is an commercial or technical or safety reason.

There are other options. For example we could use excess electricity from renewables to crack water into hydrogen and oxygen. Challenges abound with this scenario but I am hopeful it will be one way of managing our energy economy. For example, there is an abundance of energy available from solar, but not generally in the same place as would need a lot of hydrogen. Having solar farms in a desert is fine, but the hydrogen needs to get transported, and this is an element with challenges (see Hindenburg).

About solar, we would transport that solar energy anyway because there is no need for that much eletricity in the desert so the hydrogen/fuel cell would come in at a later point. If we that way can change the peaks in eletricty supply you get from solar and wind that would be a good win, maybe even good enough to enable the closure off a coal plant or 2
regarding cars in erlier example they have several card available on their site cafcp.org under saferty it explains all the saferty measures, in this youtube

View: https://youtu.be/91TWg2diDKE
you see an Hyundai video about a crash test of their fuel cell vehicle.

I actually think hydrogen will be an important part of the energy economy in the future. But it is quite a long way off, and a variety of energy production and storage solutions will be needed to transition - including heatpumps and a myriad of other techniques. Oh, and the hydrogen economy needs to be based upon clean renewable technology from source, not a fig leaf from the fossil fuel companies to hide behind.

Especially on the car part i think europe is a bit behind, yes there are hydrogen/fuel cell busses are driving around for quite some time, but fueling fuel cell at a forecourt normal in california as you can see in the link i shared, but still not done in most of europe and that's a shame.
you could be right about energy storage, that were quite a way off, trouble is also finding reliable information on that subject.

 

[Archie_tect]

Even at full tilt, a good domestic heat pump will be less than 50 decibels at 1m, given as "conversation at home" in a noise example table, and less than a quarter the noise of a commercial air-con 30m away. I can't hear ours during the day over the not-particularly-loud loading/unloading noises from industrial units half a mile away. It doesn't run full tilt often (only in the final stages of heating a tank hot water or if it gets below -10°C outside) and most of those times it's when no-one is outside. The rest of the time, it spins more slowly.

@mjr, I'm looking through all the latest reviews of ashps now for a small stone built [domestic] conversion... could I ask which make and model have you got? [PM if preferred].
I've only used Husqvarna units on an off-gas village social housing scheme which was a few years ago now so technology has changed massively!.
Many thanks.

 

[qigong chimp]

Just watched Greta Thunberg arriving in Glasgow and feel her handlers really need a sharp kick up the backside.
OK, so when it comes to saving a planet she's carrying a handicap in not being a a scowly young man slowly waking to his messianic destiny, sure, but even so could they not persuade her to master a few martial arts moves, cop off with some beautiful dark skinned young indigene and ride into Dodge on a bloody great sandworm?
It's hardly rocket science.