Can the (Met) police ever change?

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mudsticks

Squire
The particular issue of a very small proportion of women on forums like this is one which different people have different ideas of how to resolve, and also have different ideas of the importance of resolving it. It is clearly something that has proved extremely difficult to resolve so far and will not be fixed by people just....oooh, I dunno.

The world is a worrying place and people are not going to suddenly see the light and make it a fairer place because they are told it is wrong as it is. Wishful thinking never cured anything, especially getting people to think more carefully about the implications of what they are saying, and the impetus to change will only come from an evidence based approach.

It is not too difficult to work out in theory, but clearly too difficult to implement in practice.

I'm sorry, are you saying you want an 'evidence based' approach, to proving that women are put off from joining in things by sexist language.??

It's clearly been happening in the Met, and going on unchecked for some time.

As for the rest of it that many people don't care about, or even want to see a change to the status quo?

Well yes I was aware - I've existed in, and observed this world for quite a while now..
 

AuroraSaab

Legendary Member
It's the general snarkiness and tone that puts me off posting on here. And the way that every thread ends up with personal comments. I've never felt that my views weren't taken seriously because I'm female and there is actually very little sexist banter. Nobody is joining NACA, male or female, so it's not just the women who are put off.

As to all the other stuff, it's the result of 10k years of women being second class citizens. Women being poorly treated is so ingrained that most of it goes unnoticed by all of us, including other women. It's just wallpaper. Every so often there will be an incident like Sarah Everard's murder that brings some aspect to attention but mostly it's so ingrained we don't even know it's happening.
 

mudsticks

Squire
It's the general snarkiness and tone that puts me off posting on here. And the way that every thread ends up with personal comments. I've never felt that my views weren't taken seriously because I'm female and there is actually very little sexist banter. Nobody is joining NACA, male or female, so it's not just the women who are put off.

As to all the other stuff, it's the result of 10k years of women being second class citizens. Women being poorly treated is so ingrained that most of it goes unnoticed by all of us, including other women. It's just wallpaper. Every so often there will be an incident like Sarah Everard's murder that brings some aspect to attention but mostly it's so ingrained we don't even know it's happening.

I agree that 10k + years of women being treated as second class citizens has lead to our being poorly treated as 'routine' that so many folks (including women) go "So what' that's just normal"

And that includes how we are spoken about and to.

The sexist banter and attitudes both here and elsewhere is ingrained as to be 'unremarkable'
I don't bother to call it out half the time..
It would be nice if others did more.. But there we are.

I could give plenty of examples, but don't fancy a 'trawling' mission right now..
Maybe later ..🤔

I'm not saying it's the only reason people won't join in here.
But it's going to be a contributing factor.
 
This is the problem..
The contract of trust is broken, even if it was ever there..

I was on my way from our food n farming rally in Parliament Square yesterday and just backed myself up against the wall to check on my phone where I was supposed to be meeting friends later .

I was approached by two (male) Met officers who asked me what my intentions were, was I anything to do with XR, did I have any paint in my bag etc etc

I deflected most of their unwarranted questions and worked the conversation around to 'best route to Soho' , but they still made me feel uncomfortable, unecessarily intruded upon.

And that's me as a 'well spoken' middle aged white woman - the 'sort' usually fairly immune to harassment by the police ...

If I feel uncomfortable in their presence, then I can only imagine how little trust those less privileged, and far more vulnerable, feel in this 'force'.

Did daddy give you a trust fund?
 

Rusty Nails

Country Member
I'm sorry, are you saying you want an 'evidence based' approach, to proving that women are put off from joining in things by sexist language.??

It's clearly been happening in the Met, and going on unchecked for some time.

As for the rest of it that many people don't care about, or even want to see a change to the status quo?

Well yes I was aware - I've existed in, and observed this world for quite a while now..

No, I am not saying that as it clearly is part of the problem.

I was talking about the specific point of the statistical imbalance of women and men in general on Internet forums, which I believe is probably due to more than the one problem of sexist language and attitudes. If you think that is the sole, or even the prime, reason then fine, but I assume that opinion is based on more than anecdata, and would be more than happy to change my views if such evidence was available.
 

mudsticks

Squire
No, I am not saying that as it clearly is part of the problem.

I was talking about the specific point of the statistical imbalance of women and men in general on Internet forums, which I believe is probably due to more than the one problem of sexist language and attitudes. If you think that is the sole, or even the prime, reason then fine, but I assume that opinion is based on more than anecdata, and would be more than happy to change my views if such evidence was available.
We're roughly in agreement then.

Clearly the reasons that women do or don't participate are going to vary woman to woman, as ever it's more complicated than 'all this' or 'all that'

As if we're all individuals, with slightly different motivations and experience.

But as sexism. and sexist attitudes are endemic as a thread throughout society - they are bound to to affect the degree of participation, as they're everywhere on the internet too.

This place may or not not be quite so 'bad' regarding sexism as others..
But tbh that's a pretty low bar to jump.

Sadly, indifference to, or inertia around tackling these problem, is also endemic.
 

deptfordmarmoset

Über Member
Sadly, indifference to, or inertia around tackling these problem, is also endemic.
Sometimes, no, often, I find myself having to keep quiet for fear of adding to the male bias. After all, you're better placed to fight for the women's corner then I am. So there's also silent support.
 

mudsticks

Squire
Sometimes, no, often, I find myself having to keep quiet for fear of adding to the male bias. After all, you're better placed to fight for the women's corner then I am. So there's also silent support.

Do feel free to add your voice, where you can.:okay:

Given that advocating for women's rights seems so often to be to do with resisting male oppression, it would be nice to have more men on board generally, engaging in active, or vocal support.
Silent support is better than nowt, I guess, but it's hard to know, or feel it's there:laugh:

Almost as a given, people with sexist or misogynistic attitudes, aren't really that interested in what women have to say anyhow, so aren't taking much notice of us, or our concerns.

It's annoying that it should have to be so, but men can often more effectively speak up, carry, and amplify the 'we need to make changes' messages to other men than we can.

And then there's 'locker room' type situations, such as on those horrible WhatsApp groups, where we're not around anyhow, so other men can obv do more there..

Having the 'balls' to go against the 'norm' isn't always easy, but if you don't speak up , then change is very slow, or even non existent.
 

AuroraSaab

Legendary Member
12 weeks each, though bailed on appeal. Deterrent sentence I would imagine as they'll only do 6 weeks. Glad that the judge noted that the failure of other officers to call out this language played a part in normalising it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...grossly-offensive-messages-Wayne-Couzens.html

Also interesting that their comments, well my reading anyway, after arrest give the impression that the we shouldn't hold police officers to higher standards than others.
 
OP
OP
glasgowcyclist

glasgowcyclist

Über Member
Alternative non-Daily Mail link https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-62995926

“A serving Met police constable and an ex-officer have been jailed for sharing "grossly racist, sexist, and misogynistic" messages with Sarah Everard's killer.
Jonathon Cobban, 35, and Joel Borders, 46, shared WhatsApp messages about women and disabled people in a group with Wayne Couzens.
The pair were jailed for 12 weeks and bailed pending an appeal.
Couzens murdered Ms Everard while a serving Met officer.
Serving officer Cobban and ex-PC Borders, who were members of a chat called "Bottle and Stoppers", were convicted on 21 September.
Westminster Magistrates' Court heard they joked about raping a female colleague, talked about Tasering children and people with disabilities, and displayed racist views in the group in 2019.”
 
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