War with Russia

[albion]

It was Trump promoting Antifafa as being Veeeeerrrrryyy Baaad.
Like Woke.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

They didn't. Antifa as a group didn't exist then. The anti racism groups of the 1970s and 80s have been credited with being the inspiration for Antifa.

wrong, look since the 1930's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States) That you need to make a disticntion between 300 groups and therefore claim that Antiafa is not that antiafa i really don't care about.

The earliest known group using the moniker "Antifa" was formed in 2007. Although they do favour direct action there has only been one suspected Antifa related murder but hundreds of murders carried out by far right groups.

only one? Wow makes it all that better, you seem to think if something is called terror it has include murder how else would you pull op murder stats, but if you disrupt a democratic process such as attacking protrstors because you don't like what they are protesting about. Something you lot understand all to well if orthodox jews would violently attack those pro-palestina hamas fans. but they don't

The SPLC reported that antifa members "have been involved in skirmishes and property crimes, 'but the threat of lethal violence pales in comparison to that posed by far-right extremists.

ooooh those others are worse, that really doesn't make them terrorist, good logic, so if pete rapes 25 women, is unfair to call paul a rapist too because he raped ''only'' one or two? and he was only mildly violent? WTH how do you makes this up?

It was mistakenly linked to anarchist extremism in 2017 by the New Jersey Homeland Security and this was changed in 2019. The director of the FBI stated that the FBI see Antifa as an ideology rather than an organisation.

nit-picking

The common linking to Antifa to violence and extremism tends to be from conspiracy theorists.

There is a dutch tv show in which a dutch presentor travels with these terrorist in which they admit identify and say(hiding behind face mask) what they do and that is attack peaceful demonstrators in the Netherlands and Germany because they call them far right.(during this there are many Antifa flags visible) And in some/many cases they are correct but that still doesn't make it their call to decide of the government needs to allow a certain demonstration or not. It simply shouldn't be there call but in many cases it is because local goverment then says ''we can't warrant saferty'' the death of democrazy by those claiming to defend it.

 

[icowden]

wrong, look since the 1930's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States) That you need to make a disticntion between 300 groups and therefore claim that Antiafa is not that antiafa i really don't care about.

Not wrong - did you read the article? The German word "Antifa" appeared in 1930 in connection with anti-Nazi activists. Read the background history properly.

only one? Wow makes it all that better, you seem to think if something is called terror it has include murder how else would you pull op murder stats, but if you disrupt a democratic process such as attacking protrstors because you don't like what they are protesting about. Something you lot understand all to well if orthodox jews would violently attack those pro-palestina hamas fans. but they don't

Have you taken your medication today? There is no connection between Antifa ideology and any terrorist attack.

ooooh those others are worse, that really doesn't make them terrorist, good logic, so if pete rapes 25 women, is unfair to call paul a rapist too because he raped ''only'' one or two? and he was only mildly violent? WTH how do you makes this up?

The only person making things up around here is you.

There is a dutch tv show in which a dutch presentor travels with these terrorist in which they admit identify and say(hiding behind face mask) what they do and that is attack peaceful demonstrators in the Netherlands and Germany because they call them far right.(during this there are many Antifa flags visible) And in some/many cases they are correct but that still doesn't make it their call to decide of the government needs to allow a certain demonstration or not. It simply shouldn't be there call but in many cases it is because local goverment then says ''we can't warrant saferty'' the death of democrazy by those claiming to defend it.

Again. Terrorists commit terror attacks to cause terror. That is why they are called terrorists. Protestors are not terrorists.
Antifa is not a group, it is an ideology. It has no leader or direction. A few people who support the ideology have been involved in violent attacks. They are very much the minority. Those that have attacked people (e.g. the attack on Thierry Baudet) were rightly arrested - in his case the people involved were two 15 year old boys. I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say here, but I don't see how people being able to protest Nazis even if local government cannot guarantee their safety is somehow the death of democracy.

 

[RecordAceFromNew]

Just because Putin is a bloody dictator did not make this a diplomatically supportable position!

What 'liberal democracy' we have here amounts to a media surround-ground free of almost any nuance. This may be better than some alternatives but we feed the seeds of repression by stoking up the international ante. Hey, Putin has war as an excuse for censorship. Meanwhile the UK political class is spoonfeeding native jingoism. What's our excuse?

Being a 'dictator' bloody or otherwise actually meant you are free to and better off focusing on the needs rather than the wants of the people. It is the "democracies" that have to work 24/7/365 on manipulating opinion to get elected every few years, at whatever cost to the people, in essentially civil wars of words constantly. This is a paradox few in the West now appreciates, despite opined long ago by Socrates/Plato.

Talking about paradox, by demonising Putin outrageously, we have made it impossible to de-escalate, never mind unwind, an un-winnable, unnecessary war, at tremendous cost to self long term. How could you make peace with Hitler reincarnate?

 

[the snail]

Being a 'dictator' bloody or otherwise actually meant you are free to and better off focusing on the needs rather than the wants of the people. It is the "democracies" that have to work 24/7/365 on manipulating opinion to get elected every few years, at whatever cost to the people, in essentially civil wars of words constantly. This is a paradox few in the West now appreciates, despite opined long ago by Socrates/Plato.

Talking about paradox, by demonising Putin outrageously, we have made it impossible to de-escalate, never mind unwind, an un-winnable, unnecessary war, at tremendous cost to self long term. How could you make peace with Hitler reincarnate?

Yeah, you can knock that Hitler guy, but at least he made the trains run on time. Except he didn't of course. I don't know what you mean by demonising Putin? He imprisons or murders his political opponents, like Navalny, or the nerve agent attack in Salisbury etc. destabilises his neighbours, or invades them like Ukraine, Georgia. Responsible for horrific crimes in Chechnya, Syria etc. Persecutes LGBT people. As for looking after his people, with a relatively small population and huge income from gas and oil, Russians should be enjoying a great lifestyle with great public services etc., but the money has gone into the pockets of his mafia cronies and fuelled massive corruption. Still, feel free to move to Russia, or North Korea if that floats your boat.

 

[Milzy]

Putin has been on a big conscription push. In June he’s supposed to send in 300,000 troops over the front line. Ukraine will be completely outgunned and don’t have enough shells and drones. Zelensky will be begging for more millions while using every last Ukrainian as cannon fodder. The walls are closing in on the all singing, acting, dancing puppet Zelensky.
Somebody tell me how they will push them back to Russia?

 

[Rusty Nails]

Being a 'dictator' bloody or otherwise actually meant you are free to and better off focusing on the needs rather than the wants of the people. It is the "democracies" that have to work 24/7/365 on manipulating opinion to get elected every few years, at whatever cost to the people, in essentially civil wars of words constantly. This is a paradox few in the West now appreciates, despite opined long ago by Socrates/Plato.

Talking about paradox, by demonising Putin outrageously, we have made it impossible to de-escalate, never mind unwind, an un-winnable, unnecessary war, at tremendous cost to self long term. How could you make peace with Hitler reincarnate?

There is an assumption there about the motives and judgement of a dictator and a distrust of the ability of the collective masses to know what they need. It explains your support for (strong) dictatorships such as Russia, China (and N Korea???) and your disdain for (weak) western democracies and your quoting of that minor philosopher Mencken. Much better to give up all that tiresome thinking about how you would want the world to be run and just leave it all to that benevolent dictator and listen to what's best for you.

 

[icowden]

Putin has been on a big conscription push. In June he’s supposed to send in 300,000 troops over the front line. Ukraine will be completely outgunned and don’t have enough shells and drones.

The problem with conscripts is that they don't want to be there. The Ukrainians will defend their country against what will largely be young boys and old men.

 

[Mr Celine]

Still, feel free to move to Russia, or North Korea if that floats your boat.

I doubt he ever left.

 

[farfromtheland]

Yeah, you can knock that Hitler guy, but at least he made the trains run on time. Except he didn't of course.

No indeed, that was Mussolini's claim to fame.

Still, feel free to move to Russia, or North Korea if that floats your boat.

I reckon Castro's Cuba or Gaddafi's Libya were both more tempting in terms of distribution of resources. Yugoslavia had its moments. The trouble with centralist communist regimes is that they require ideological obedience (rather than economic egalitarianism) to maintain their power structure. This is not ever a price worth paying.

The trouble with western capitalism is essentially the same, with more room for asserting dissent - as long as it's contained and dissipated - and no hope of economic egalitarianism whatsoever.

Both sides of the political coin are dependent on ignorance.

By 'egalitarian' i don't imagine that we should all sup the old communal gruel, but that big bucks should not have disproportionate political sway.

 

[albion]

However, the western capitalist style is the only real way for fast evolution progression.
China's progression itself can be said to be only there by jumping on the back of the capitalist train.

 

[Beebo]

However, the western capitalist style is the only real way for fast evolution progression.
China's progression itself can be said to be only there by jumping on the back of the capitalist train.

With the added benefit of state control of the population and being able to railroad through all changes without any consultation.
A new motorway goes straight through your home, tough luck.

 

[farfromtheland]

'Fat evolution progression'

Oh dear, that was a typo but I'll let it stand in the forum spirit.

 

[Ian H]

With the added benefit of state control of the population and being able to railroad through all changes without any consultation.
A new motorway goes straight through your home, tough luck.

Not quite. https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/r...e/news-story/7b476943c1f4dd21ab0f27021621410c

 

[RecordAceFromNew]

Yeah, you can knock that Hitler guy, but at least he made the trains run on time. Except he didn't of course. I don't know what you mean by demonising Putin? He imprisons or murders his political opponents, like Navalny, or the nerve agent attack in Salisbury etc. destabilises his neighbours, or invades them like Ukraine, Georgia. Responsible for horrific crimes in Chechnya, Syria etc. Persecutes LGBT people. As for looking after his people, with a relatively small population and huge income from gas and oil, Russians should be enjoying a great lifestyle with great public services etc., but the money has gone into the pockets of his mafia cronies and fuelled massive corruption. Still, feel free to move to Russia, or North Korea if that floats your boat.

Oh dear. You again.

Is international politics like a game of battleship in your head? With Genocide Joe on one side vs Hitler Reincarnate on the other perhaps?

Or is it Peace Loving World Policeman Joe vs Hitler Reincarnate?

I thought all the smarter punters here have already understood and accepted international politics is anarchic, and looking at it any other way is naive, pointless, and very boring.

You see without rising above moralising, you will never see the wood for the trees. You will also be forever disappointed waiting for "justice", since no World Judge Jury Policeman will ever come, because there is none.

It might not feel like it, but I am trying to help you.



Back on topic, until not so long ago, and for centuries, wise statesmen understood the principal purpose of diplomacy is to be sure a courteous discourse with your enemy is possible, so that they might be convinced to do things they wouldn't otherwise willingly do. Incidentally, the critical importance of talking to your enemy is why diplomatic immunity is a thing - in antiquity emissaries regularly lost their heads.

Meanwhile, Biden has called Putin a killer with no soul, a pure thug, a war criminal and a butcher. Shortly after Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, Biden said the Russian president “cannot stay in power”. A few weeks ago, Biden called him a "crazy SOB".

Fact is quiet diplomacy wins no votes, who cares about anything else?

The trouble with centralist communist regimes is that they require ideological obedience (rather than economic egalitarianism) to maintain their power structure. This is not ever a price worth paying.

The trouble with western capitalism is essentially the same, with more room for asserting dissent - as long as it's contained and dissipated - and no hope of economic egalitarianism whatsoever.

Both sides of the political coin are dependent on ignorance.

By 'egalitarian' i don't imagine that we should all sup the old communal gruel, but that big bucks should not have disproportionate political sway.

Have you considered the possibility that ideological obedience is a price worth paying if the ideology works 'for the people'?

That is Singapore I think, but more importantly China since Deng till today imho.

In case this joke is new to you - in Western democracies every few years the ruling party changes but the policies remain the same, while in China... - you can guess the punchline. I mention this for all those who think China just got lucky to become the world's largest economy, while somehow India e.g. didn't even come close.

No system is ever perfect, but is an ideology that has the pursuit of what's best for the people as its top, 2nd and 3rd objective still an ideology? Can such an ideology/system with such objectives and an institution continuously honed to achieve it be illegitimate?

The irony is probably too subtle for most, is it not paradoxical that most in the West (and pretty sure the vast majority of posters here) believe anything but liberal democracy is ideologically retarded? It is certainly what the neocons have crusaded for, to kill if necessary, for decades. How has it worked out, domestically and internationally? Objectively, how has "by the people" been working out "for the people"?

Who is ignorant of the other, in truth? Or is xenophobia the root of the issue?

As usual, I welcome any comment proving me wrong with facts and logic.