Times article about a racist old drunk

[AuroraSaab]

From the article:-
Reid feels that Churchill’s attitude was racist not just by the standards of our time, but also by those of his own...
...When “uncivilised” people misbehaved, he had no qualms about using overwhelming force. At the Colonial Office from 1921-22, he displayed extreme brutality in response to uprisings. “I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes,” he argued.

How close does that bring him to being Hitler though? Left unchecked would he have systematically sent millions of those 'uncivilised tribes' to the gas chambers?

We all know every nation lionises certain figures and that their actions don't bear contemporary moral scrutiny, and that opposition to them at the time is often forgotten in the fog of celebrating what they did get right.

Doing what the author does, which is looking back at historical figures with the benefit of a wider perspective and hindsight, do you think Churchill is close to Hitler, Ian?

 

[Ian H]

How close does that bring him to being Hitler though? Left unchecked would he have systematically sent millions of those 'uncivilised tribes' to the gas chambers?

He used poison gas, starvation, and lethal force. I'll leave you to judge the morality of those actions.

We all know every nation lionises certain figures and that their actions don't bear contemporary moral scrutiny, and that opposition to them at the time is often forgotten in the fog of celebrating what they did get right.

Doing what the author does, which is looking back at historical figures with the benefit of a wider perspective and hindsight, do you think Churchill is close to Hitler, Ian?

In case you missed the bolded bit - Reid feels that Churchill’s attitude was racist not just by the standards of our time, but also by those of his own.

 

[multitool]

Aurora is reaching for her trademark reductio ad absurdam again.

Churchill does not have to have tried to exterminate a race in order to hold similar views to Hitler with regards to racial superiority.

As Ian says, there plenty of examples of Churchill's racist violence.

 

[matticus]

...

Doing what the author does, which is looking back at historical figures with the benefit of a wider perspective and hindsight, do you think Churchill is close to Hitler, Ian?

Good luck getting a straight answer there Aurora!

 

[BoldonLad]

The joys of hindsight, and commenting without having responsibility for actually doing something at the time, possibly with an exceedingly short time frame, in which to make decisions, and, limited by previous events, possibly outside of your control.

 

[multitool]

The joys of hindsight, and commenting without having responsibility for actually doing something at the time, possibly with an exceedingly short time frame, in which to make decisions, and, limited by previous events, possibly outside of your control.

Is that Hitler you are talking about?

 

[BoldonLad]

Is that Hitler you are talking about?

No, did he write a book or article on Churchill too?

 

[AuroraSaab]

He used poison gas, starvation, and lethal force. I'll leave you to judge the morality of those actions.

We can all judge the morality of them. It's a big step to saying that makes him not far from Hitler though isn't it?

In case you missed the bolded bit - Reid feels that Churchill’s attitude was racist not just by the standards of our time, but also by those of his own.

I didn't miss it. As you pointed out yourself, other historians disagree with Reid's appraisal. Saying Churchill was a racist by the standards of his own time is hardly the same as saying he is not far from Hitler though.

Aurora is reaching for her trademark reductio ad absurdam again.

No, just pointing out hyperbole.

Churchill does not have to have tried to exterminate a race in order to hold similar views to Hitler with regards to racial superiority.

You didn't say he held similar views. You said he 'wasn't so very far away from his vaunted enemy'. Which is a little bit of an exaggeration surely.

As Ian says, there plenty of examples of Churchill's racist violence.

Yes, we know. He's still quite a way from being Hitler though, surely.

 

[multitool]

You didn't say he held similar views. You said he 'wasn't so very far away from his vaunted enemy'. Which is a little bit of an exaggeration surely.

I didn't say in which way he "wasn't so very far away from his vaunted enemy", so you are putting your own spin on it which, you being you, is to leap to the most extreme thing you can to try and exaggerate the effect.

For all you know I might have been referring to the fact that London is only 690 miles from Berlin.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Oh, I see. You actually meant something like 'They both liked painting'. My bad.

 

[multitool]

Again. You are being characteristically ridiculous. Perhaps, before leaping in with those great big feet of yours, you should have sought clarification.

We all know though that you are really only interested in point scoring, however cheap, rather than discussion.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Try avoiding making hyperbolic comparisons in the first place. I've told you a million times not to exaggerate.

It's really not helpful to sensible debate to compare everything to the Nazis/Hitler/insert other epitome of evil of choice.

 

[multitool]

It's really not helpful to sensible debate to compare everything to the Nazis/Hitler/insert other epitome of evil of choice.

In a discussion of Churchill it's a bit hard not to reference Hitler, you bell

 

[AuroraSaab]

Refer to is not the same as comparing. 'Churchill and Hitler were both handy with the watercolours' is referring to Hitler whilst talking of Churchill. Saying Churchill 'wasn't so very far away from (Hitler)' is a comparison of the two. Anyway, the point is that for all his moral failings Churchill really isn't anywhere near the man who sent millions to the gas chambers, sought to conquer all Europe, embarked on genocidal campaigns against several communities, and started a war that led to 40 plus million deaths. It's crass to suggest he was.

 

[multitool]

There you go. Reaching for the extremes again.

Try to be less hyperbolic.