What is the point of prison?

[FishFright]

Is there any evidence to show that previous levels of expenditure were actually achieving the result of reducing, or even stabilizing levels of addiction?

This is your stock reply to any spending . Have you ever tried looking for the evidence yourself ?

 

[BoldonLad]

This is your stock reply to any spending . Have you ever tried looking for the evidence yourself ?

I beg to differ, I was not objecting to the proposed level of spending.

My point is, briefly:

over the years there have been numerous "anti-drug" initiatives, from Governments of both parties.

During the same time period, the price of the "original drugs of choice, ie alcohol and tobacco) have been increased, again my Governments of both parties, to the ridiculous point where "illegal" drugs are.in many cases, cheaper than legal (and regulated) drugs.

The drug "problem" has allegedly got steadily worse.

Perhaps, it is time to stop shovelling money into a black hole, and have a re-think?

For what it is worth, the ONS figures would suggest drug abuse has diminished slightly in the years since 1996. Do we believe that?

 

[FishFright]

I beg to differ, I was not objecting to the proposed level of spending.

My point is, briefly:

over the years there have been numerous "anti-drug" initiatives, from Governments of both parties.

During the same time period, the price of the "original drugs of choice, ie alcohol and tobacco) have been increased, again my Governments of both parties, to the ridiculous point where "illegal" drugs are.in many cases, cheaper than legal (and regulated) drugs.

The drug "problem" has allegedly got steadily worse.

Perhaps, it is time to stop shovelling money into a black hole, and have a re-think?

For what it is worth, the ONS figures would suggest drug abuse has diminished slightly in the years since 1996. Do we believe that?

But what you wrote was " Is there any evidence to show that previous levels of expenditure were actually achieving the result of reducing, or even stabilizing levels of addiction? " so.... is there ?

 

[Bromptonaut]

As long as we treat addiction as a criminal rather than health problem it's going backwards.

 

[BoldonLad]

But what you wrote was " Is there any evidence to show that previous levels of expenditure were actually achieving the result of reducing, or even stabilizing levels of addiction? " so.... is there ?

Well, based on ONS figures, it would appear the situation is stable, even with falling budgets (I am taking your word for it that they have been cut).

So, superficially, it would not seem unreasonable to say why spend more?

But, personally, bearing in mind we are talking about the consumption of illegal substances, I would possibly doubt the accuracy of the figures. I also have some personal experience of drug abuse, criminality and ensuring problems.

As I have already posted, it is my belief that the battle is unwinnable. That is an opinion, I am not an expert, are you?

 

[FishFright]

Well, based on ONS figures, it would appear the situation is stable, even with falling budgets (I am taking your word for it that they have been cut).

So, superficially, it would not seem unreasonable to say why spend more?

But, personally, bearing in mind we are talking about the consumption of illegal substances, I would possibly doubt the accuracy of the figures. I also have some personal experience of drug abuse, criminality and ensuring problems.

As I have already posted, it is my belief that the battle is unwinnable. That is an opinion, I am not an expert, are you?

See how much better it is when you look for the evidence and then post

But I do agree that the battle is unwinnable.

 

[Deleted member 49]

over the years there have been numerous "anti-drug" initiatives, from Governments of both parties

It's called the war on drugs.....and the drugs allways win !

During the same time period, the price of the "original drugs of choice, ie alcohol and tobacco) have been increased, again my Governments of both parties, to the ridiculous point where "illegal" drugs are.in many cases, cheaper than legal (and regulated) drugs.

Half the kids who are running around killing each other over turf wars/county lines must be sh1tiing themselves.🙄
Whilst other countries look to legalize and be forward thinking.What do we do ? Same old ffs.Drug enforcement,crackdowns has worked where ever ? Start by legalizing and taxing cannabis maybe,and decriminalize the use and posession of others.
As you say what's the social cost of the alcohol....

 

[BoldonLad]

It's called the war on drugs.....and the drugs allways win !

Half the kids who are running around killing each other over turf wars/county lines must be sh1tiing themselves.🙄
Whilst other countries look to legalize and be forward thinking.What do we do ? Same old ffs.Drug enforcement,crackdowns has worked where ever ? Start by legalizing and taxing cannabis maybe,and decriminalize the use and posession of others.
As you say what's the social cost of the alcohol....

Thank you for repeating, more-or-less what I said.

 

[BoldonLad]

See how much better it is when you look for the evidence and then post

But I do agree that the battle is unwinnable.

Whats that word again supercilious is that right?

 

[Deleted member 49]

Thank you for repeating, more-or-less what I said.

Really ? I bow to your superiority 🙄

 

[Rusty Nails]

It's called the war on drugs.....and the drugs allways win !

Half the kids who are running around killing each other over turf wars/county lines must be sh1tiing themselves.🙄
Whilst other countries look to legalize and be forward thinking.What do we do ? Same old ffs.Drug enforcement,crackdowns has worked where ever ? Start by legalizing and taxing cannabis maybe,and decriminalize the use and posession of others.
As you say what's the social cost of the alcohol....

I really struggle to decide on whether the legalisation of drugs is a good or a bad thing.

On the one hand I see the link to crime both with those who profit from it and those who are drawn into crime because of the constant need for money to feed their habit and can see where legalisation would cut the costs and hence the risks of needing to turn to crime.

On the other hand I have seen the links between spiralling and regular drug use and involvement in violence and abuse. I have three cousins who have spent a lot of their lives in jail for violent crimes committed under the influence of drugs, one for knife crime, one GBH and one murder. These were not crimes caused in the search for money to fund their drug use but just violence against people they knew while they were out of control under the use of drugs, sometimes allied to alcohol.

I am also a fence-sitter because I have seen the unfairness of jailing people for minor drug offences when, in the early 1970s a close friend of mine spent three months in Swansea jail for possession of cannabis for his own use. Luckily he managed to make a good career for himself but it did cause him employment problems for a long time. It never made him stop using cannabis but he was just a lot more careful.

 

[BoldonLad]

Really ? I bow to your superiority 🙄

 

[Deleted member 49]

On the other hand I have seen the links between spiralling and regular drug use and involvement in violence and abuse. I have three cousins who have spent a lot of their lives in jail for violent crimes committed under the influence of drugs, one for knife crime, one GBH and one murder. These were not crimes caused in the search for money to fund their drug use but just violence against people they knew while they were out of control under the use of drugs, sometimes allied to alcohol.

I get what your saying but by that should we start with alcohol ? Do you know these crimes wouldn't have been committed without drugs?
We need to look at other countries that have decriminalized and see what the outcomes are. Portugal where I'm pretty sure I read that drug related deaths are down.Were never going to beat drugs and the crime that comes with it.Surely it's got to be worth a try to make it safer though.

 

[BoldonLad]

I get what your saying but by that should we start with alcohol ? Do you know these crimes wouldn't have been committed without drugs?
We need to look at other countries that have decriminalized and see what the outcomes are. Portugal where I'm pretty sure I read that drug related deaths are down.Were never going to beat drugs and the crime that comes with it.Surely it's got to be worth a try to make it safer though.

Indeed. Perhaps, time to think the unthinkable.

 

[Rusty Nails]

I get what your saying but by that should we start with alcohol ? Do you know these crimes wouldn't have been committed without drugs?
We need to look at other countries that have decriminalized and see what the outcomes are. Portugal where I'm pretty sure I read that drug related deaths are down.Were never going to beat drugs and the crime that comes with it.Surely it's got to be worth a try to make it safer though.

I understand the comparison with alcohol and don't know the answer. Alcohol and drugs both clearly have the ability to affect people's feelings and behaviour, in the vast majority of cases with no problem, but in a very few resulting in loss of control, violence and abuse. I am not sure if it is still the same today as I haven't looked at the statistics, but at one time a lot of domestic violence happened after the pub closed.
I suppose the difference is that alcohol has always been legal, is enjoyed by many without problems, is a huge source of profit to business and revenue to the country, whereas drugs, even today, and especially among older people, are not taken anywhere near as regularly.
I very much doubt that legalisation of drugs is anywhere near and it will take some very strong proof that it will either decrease, or at least not cause increases in, crime, violence, health problems before it is even considered. It is more complicated than just 'worth a try' because the genie will not be put back in the bottle, and I cannot see any political party making such a change as a leap of faith without very strong evidence.