Tory MP stabbed

[AuroraSaab]

Much of it is just venting, but what does it achieve in the long run when we use abusive language about people? Most people who vote Tory will do so despite the offensive language Boris Johnson has used, not because of it. How does using terms like 'Tory scum' or 'Nazi' do anything other than alienate people?

I'm tired of women being told to be nice and to be kind too. In fact, 'Be Kind' was all over the women's and girls t shirts and pyjamas in Asda yesterday and it was really pi**ing me off. But you can be forthright and passionate without using derogatory language.

Once you start, where do you draw the line on what language is acceptable? Shouldn't decent people hold themselves to a higher standard than Boris Johnson?

 

[mudsticks]

Don't quite get this.

You think it would be great if everyone refrained from abuse, threats of violence etc

So, because you have had abuse, threats of violence etc directed at you, you feel it ok for yourself and/or others to use abuse. threats of violence etc?

Every journey starts with a single step, if no-one is willing to desist from abuse and threats, etc, then, they are not going to cease, are they?

I think I am right in saying that you have said, several times, that your views are "leftish", so, it seems reasonable to assume that those who disagree with you would be "rightish"? Not that being "to the right" (or, to the left), excuses abuse or threats of violence.

OK, let us say we agree, Boris is not setting a good example, is that a reason why we should follow that example?

Where did i say that it was OK to use threats of violence. ??

Or that we could use Johnson as an example -

I'm said that his language is excused by many - "He's just bit of a lad - hur hur" etc etc - i never said we should emulate him.
I've never violently threatened anyone - nor have i ever encouraged it in others.

All my activism has been non violent.

I don't abuse others - even though I've received plenty enough of it.

When does my non violent language and action get recognised, and reciprocated then ?
Shall i give it another fifty years, or so - just be patient ??

But if i strongly object to other peoples foul language, and these threats .
I'm just making a fuss - making it up - asking for it even.

We've even had someone here asking what women do to receive rape threats online.
As if they could do something that would somehow - make that justified.

i don't recall your intervening to suggest that that was out of order..
Or did you not 'quite get it'?

 

[BoldonLad]

Where did i say that it was OK to use threats of violence. ??

Or that we could use Johnson as an example -

I'm said that his language is excused by many - "He's just bit of a lad - hur hur" etc etc - i never said we should emulate him.
I've never violently threatened anyone - nor have i ever encouraged it in others.

All my activism has been non violent.

I don't abuse others - even though I've received plenty enough of it.

When does my non violent language and action get recognised, and reciprocated then ?
Shall i give it another fifty years, or so - just be patient ??

But if i strongly object to other peoples foul language, and these threats .
I'm just making a fuss - making it up - asking for it even.

We've even had someone here asking what women do to receive rape threats online.
As if they could do something that would somehow - make that justified.

i don't recall your intervening to suggest that that was out of order..
Or did you not 'quite get it'?

Isn't this in the same mould as saying "I will cut my carbon footprint when xox does?", shouldn't we be advocating unilaterally cutting the abuse etc?

I have not accused you "making it up". I consistently advocate "playing the ball, not the man/woman".

I do not recall having seen the post you refer to. If you can point me to it, and, I have "liked" or otherwise indicated my approval, then, we will discuss it.

 

[mudsticks]

Isn't this in the same mould as saying "I will cut my carbon footprint when xox does?", shouldn't we be advocating unilaterally cutting the abuse etc?

I have not accused you "making it up". I consistently advocate "playing the ball, not the man/woman".

I do not recall having seen the post you refer to. If you can point me to it, and, I have "liked" or otherwise indicated my approval, then, we will discuss it.

My point is, I never started, nor carried on abuse nor advocated for it, quite the reverse..

I have however, received plenty.


But if I've complained there'll be various iterations of either 'asking for it' or 'needing to toughen up'

Or exaggerating, or making it up, a big old shrug 'who cares?' and so on, and so on.

So calls for unilaterally desisting from abuse dont need to be directed at me,.

I didn't say you personally were doing all.that.

I just gave one example of many, where such matters were rather overlooked as unimportant.


It was a statement of my experience, over many many years, of active service in the field.

Come to think of it I've even been called a 'feminazi on many occasions.

Who should I complain to ??

Who is going to be interested.??

 

[Hitchington]

Much of it is just venting, but what does it achieve in the long run when we use abusive language about people? Most people who vote Tory will do so despite the offensive language Boris Johnson has used, not because of it. How does using terms like 'Tory scum' or 'Nazi' do anything other than alienate people?

“We cannot get any worse than a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist, misogynistic, absolute vile … banana republic, vile, nasty, Etonian … piece of scum,” to give a bit more context to the original quote.

It was said at a pre conference reception to Labour activists and probably had the opposite effect of alienation. I know similar and worse is said at Tory party fringe meetings, by after dinner speakers at conservative club functions and in the male dominated private member club evenings by sozzled of Tories about the left. But it never gets media coverage. Funny that.

 

[AndyRM]

The PM of England literally used the words "tank top lifting bum boys".

So if that's cool, from the leader of the country I live in, I think I'm entitled to call him 'scum' if I want to. Which is a lot less derogatory and insulting as I see it.

 

[Hitchington]

Spot on. 👍

 

[AndyRM]

Spot on. 👍

I wish it didn't have to be.

And as I've been clear (I hope), I'm prepared to listen to, and understand all views. That's important, and is how we learn.

But there are times when I find those views reprehensible and they need to be challenged.

 

[mudsticks]

“We cannot get any worse than a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist, misogynistic, absolute vile … banana republic, vile, nasty, Etonian … piece of scum,” to give a bit more context to the original quote.

It was said at a pre conference reception to Labour activists and probably had the opposite effect of alienation. I know similar and worse is said at Tory party fringe meetings, by after dinner speakers at conservative club functions and in the male dominated private member club evenings by sozzled of Tories about the left. But it never gets media coverage. Funny that.

One reason it doesn't get reported is because it's totally normalised behaviour, expected even.

Establishment chortles, at any target they feel they can punch down on.

Wimmin , gays , greens , ethnic minorities, the socially conscious, poor people, immigrants, anyone 'not them'

But if the leftie sorts at their functions, use strong language criticising the actual government in power who are actually knowingly harming people, and much else besides.

Well then thats a terrible thing to say..

If however 'the lefties' don't say anything 'colourful' ..

They won't get reported at all.

Or be accused of being awfully po faced, worthy, and humourless.

This is what happens in a country where the press has such a rightward leaning ownership, and control.

 

[AuroraSaab]

The PM of England literally used the words "tank top lifting bum boys".

So if that's cool, from the leader of the country I live in, I think I'm entitled to call him 'scum' if I want to. Which is a lot less derogatory and insulting as I see it.

You can call him whatever you like. Angela Raynor's language may go down well with people who share her opinion, but such language goes down less well with the general public, whether they actually share the sentiment or not.

'He started it' shouldn't really come into it. You could apply that to anything.

Ultimately though, where does such language get you? What does it achieve apart from venting and the short-lived rush of 'telling it like it is'? Does calling people 'scum' or 'Nazi' bring the demise of the Tory government any closer? I would say not.

 

[mudsticks]

You can call him whatever you like. Angela Raynor's language may go down well with people who share her opinion, but such language goes down less well with the general public, whether they actually share the sentiment or not.

'He started it' shouldn't really come into it. You could apply that to anything.

Ultimately though, where does such language get you? What does it achieve apart from venting and the short-lived rush of 'telling it like it is'? Does calling people 'scum' or 'Nazi' bring the demise of the Tory government any closer? I would say not.

Am I right in thinking that you're saying that the 'left wing' or progressive sorts - call them what you will, should have higher standards for themselves in terms of language and deportment. ??

If so, I might generally agree.

After all we're supposed to be the more thoughtful, and caring ones right.?

However the flip side of that is going to be our reaction when 'our' government enacts some truly appalling policies, and tries to push through unlawful legislation.

When it neglects to look after the basic needs of its population, and engages in breathtaking corruption, and mendacity, which directly affects all of us.

To me, all that seems far more outrageous , and worthy of censure than a few 'not even expletives' at a party conference, ,or some slightly dire puns on a sub forum of a cycling forum.

"Oh dear , that's very naughty of them, but what do we expect" ??

Is more of an unforgivable underreaction,

What will it take to get enough of the electorate to wake up to what is being done in 'their' name' ??

Is a perfectly reasonable question.

But somehow, I don't think telling off FF for his somewhat questionable puns is going to be it..

 

[Deleted member 49]

Oh I don't know....calling Corbyn a Marxist,Terrorist sympathizer,Anti Semite....etc etc didn't seem to do the right any harm 🙄

 

[mudsticks]

Oh I don't know....calling Corbyn a Marxist,Terrorist sympathizer,Anti Semite....etc etc didn't seem to do the right any harm 🙄

Yebbut they're allowed to, you see under the rules of selective right wing 'Freeze peach' you see.??

Thems the roolz'

 

[Pale Rider]

I know similar and worse is said at Tory party fringe meetings, by after dinner speakers at conservative club functions and in the male dominated private member club evenings by sozzled of Tories about the left. But it never gets media coverage. Funny that.

I didn't have you down as a regular at such functions, or perhaps you are making stuff up to make a facetious point.

Which is it?

 

[AuroraSaab]

Am I right in thinking that you're saying that the 'left wing' or progressive sorts - call them what you will, should have higher standards for themselves in terms of language and deportment. ??

If so, I might generally agree.

After all we're supposed to be the more thoughtful, and caring ones right.?

However the flip side of that is going to be our reaction when 'our' government enacts some truly appalling policies, and tries to push through unlawful legislation.

When it neglects to look after the basic needs of its population, and engages in breathtaking corruption, and mendacity, which directly affects all of us.

To me, all that seems far more outrageous , and worthy of censure than a few 'not even expletives' at a party conference, ,or some slightly dire puns on a sub forum of a cycling forum.

"Oh dear , that's very naughty of them, but what do we expect" ??

Is more of an unforgivable underreaction,

What will it take to get enough of the electorate to wake up to what is being done in 'their' name' ??

Is a perfectly reasonable question.

But somehow, I don't think telling off FF for his somewhat questionable puns is going to be it..

I think everybody should hold themselves to a higher standard than Boris Johnson.

Nobody has said the government shouldn't be held to account. The question is, does using such language hold them to account any better? Are Labour nearer being elected since Angela Raynor's comments or further away?

Of course any comment on a small cycling forum is of virtually zero significance to anyone or anything, but we are talking about the use of derogatory language in general and to me it adds nothing to the discussion to use hyperbolic terms.

Are the electorate woken up by anyone calling the government 'scum'? I don't think they are. And once you've reduced political discourse to abusive language and it still hasn't worked, where do you go then?

(Edited for clarity and spelling).