Nationalise, regulate or laissez-faire?

[Ian H]

Exactly my point @Craig the cyclist

But there were people saying that we were creaming off the profits, exploiting the staff members, the profits should go back to the police etc etc

I'd agree with them. Paying decent wages to staff is one thing; generating huge surpluses to pay dividends is something else.

 

[BoldonLad]

I'd agree with them. Paying decent wages to staff is one thing; generating huge surpluses to pay dividends is something else.

Shouldn't there be any dividends then?, why would anyone invest, for no return?, or, does it all come down to what is 'fair' which means different things to different people.

 

[All uphill]

I'd agree with them. Paying decent wages to staff is one thing; generating huge surpluses to pay dividends is something else.

My point with this thread is to try to put forward the proposition that well-regulated capitalism can offer better products and services, and surpluses for investors.

In my example a shoddy, unattractive loss making activity was transformed into a surplus-generating activity that far more people chose to use. No one lost out.

 

[Fab Foodie]

My point with this thread is to try to put forward the proposition that well-regulated capitalism can offer better products and services, and surpluses for investors.

In my example a shoddy, unattractive loss making activity was transformed into a surplus-generating activity that far more people chose to use. No one lost out.

Profit generation and dividends are not unreasonable if you're prepared to risk investing in something.
Both should be better pegged to the delivery performance of that organisation, an expected level of re-investment, and equitable pay and conditions for employees - this is where regulation plays a part. Waterco's (and others) have clearly distorted the above equation in favour of dividends and bonuses at the top which are frankly obscene.

The other question which I think has become writ large and clear recently due to Brexit, Pandemic and Ukraine war is about the provision of nationally important infrastructure where the pendulum seems to be rapidly swinging in favour of state control (though I wouldn't trust this government to run a train-set).
Obvious candidates include water, power, rail/transport, Telecoms, Media, Post, healthcare, education, social housing etc. But @BoldonLad suggested (and got shot-down for), is why shouldn't there be other areas of critical infrastructure that are nationally owned or managed for 'security' - critical areas of food supply/food security, renewables, micro-chip and battery manufacture?

 

[Deleted member 49]

Another example of why we need to nationalise.Its also how they avoid paying their tax.

View: https://twitter.com/paullewismoney/status/1559421761426526210?t=B4I3azz85blIg0aW1B-zRw&s=19

 

[PK99]

The French are in the process of buying the remaining shares in EDF so it's fully nationalised.
EDF customers in Britain paying £1,971 a year for energy. People in France pay £803.
Uk energy prices meant to be rising 80% France 4%
How can we be paying that much more to the same company ?

France is iirc 75% Nuclearie less impacted by oil/gas price shock

UK Cost base is diffeerent

 

[Deleted member 49]

France is iirc 75% Nuclearie less impacted by oil/gas price shock

UK Cost base is diffeerent

Yes....and that stops us nationalising it how ?

 

[BoldonLad]

Yes....and that stops us nationalising it how ?

Will Nationalising ‘it’ change/reduce the world market price of gas?

 

[PK99]

I worked for 2 State Owned industries: BNFL and later CEGB

BNFL contracts with CEGB were:
Return on Capital Employed (ROCE) during construction and Capital Write Down and Cost Plus during operation and decommissioning.
ie BNFL were incentivised to maximise costs at all stages: The more they spent the more "profit" they made.

AT CEGB the trump card was the "Obligation to Supply" - a statutory duty to provide Generation capacity. Many projects Nuclear and Non Nuclear were justified on this basis with very limited challenge.

CEGB had 14 Regions and 14 Nuclear Power stations: One in each semi-autonomous region, the first stage management of the 14 Stations came together was one layer below the main CEGB Board.
Each Magnox station was designed and built by a different Consortium with Patented fuel design details, requiring Jig Changes to strip off the Magnox casing in the B30 fuel plant for each fuel type. In itself that was a costly exercise - but was the root cause of many of the difficulties faced in reprocessing in the 70's/80's.
France decided on a PWR design and built them like a Production Line

My wife worked for British gas, she has similar tales of organizational inefficiency. eg13 semi-autonomous regions with duplication of management and operational level functions

 

[PK99]

Yes....and that stops us nationalising it how ?

The issue at point is the differing cost bases on the generation and supply systems, not ownership.

 

[newfhouse]

Will Nationalising ‘it’ change/reduce the world market price of gas?

We already own half of the gas we use. Has the cost of extraction from the North Sea changed because of the war in Ukraine? Or have the profits increased dramatically without any additional Investment or effort?

 

[Deleted member 49]

Poor argument trying to go back to the good old days of British Gas,British Rail.
Its a myth that successful management only comes from Private Investment. Its a lie reinforced by the press and media to protect themselves.
Whilst were romantasicing about the past I remember when we had free dentists, free education, free eye tests, we owned all the services, rail, telecoms, water, gas and electric,mail... social housing, EU benefits,old peoples homes..
Yea but the Trains were dirty 🙄

 

[jowwy]

Poor argument trying to go back to the good old days of British Gas,British Rail.
Its a myth that successful management only comes from Private Investment. Its a lie reinforced by the press and media to protect themselves.
Whilst were romantasicing about the past I remember when we had free dentists, free education, free eye tests, we owned all the services, rail, telecoms, water, gas and electric,mail... social housing, EU benefits,old peoples homes..
Yea but the Trains were dirty 🙄

We still have those that are highlighted, unless things changed in the last few seconds

 

[cookiemonster]

We still have those that are highlighted, unless things changed in the last few seconds

What @Adam4868 saying is apart from the three you highlighted, we also had NHS dentistry AND free education AND free eye tests AS WELL AS owning the Royal Mail, energy, rail, water ALONG WITH social housing AND EU membership (plus its benefits) AND old people's homes.

We had ALL of them until the late 80's/early 90's, EU going 6 years ago.

 

[Craig the cyclist]

I remember when we had free dentists,

You are much older than I imagined you to be. Free dental care went in 1951.