How can politicians be held to account?

[FishFright]

All the evidence is voting irregularities in the widest sense is endemic, particularly among South Asian communities.

This Guardian story from a few years ago mentions a dozen or more towns.

Predictably, the same paper is now using the proposed measures to combat the problem as a stick with which to beat Boris.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...open-inquiries-allegations-electoral-fraud-uk

Source ? And I expect proper legal cases that were prosecuted and those broken down by ethic origin. Or an admission to making it up, either is good for me.

 

[Pale Rider]

Source ? And I expect proper legal cases that were prosecuted and those broken down by ethic origin. Or an admission to making it up, either is good for me.

Expect all you like, but it won't change anything.

Failing to tackle the problem out of a misplaced sense of political correctness is part of the problem.

Same thing happened with the Asian grooming gangs, although I accept this is trivial in comparison.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Expect all you like, but it won't change anything.

Failing to tackle the problem out of a misplaced sense of political correctness is part of the problem.

Same thing happened with the Asian grooming gangs, although I accept this is trivial in comparison.

You can only tackle the problem effectively if you actually know the size of the problem or even if the 'problem' is serious or widespread enough to warrant action.

There can be political correctness that underplays the importance of such issues, but there can also be elements of racial bias, or othering, that exaggerates their importance.

It is absolutely essential to have the full facts on numbers, impact etc., rather than newspaper hearsay or 'everyone knows' comments.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Expect all you like, but it won't change anything.

Failing to tackle the problem out of a misplaced sense of political correctness is part of the problem.

But what is the real size and scope of the problem of personation at Polling Places?

That, and not some meaningless statement about political correctness, was the request.

 

[Pale Rider]

Given the nature of the offending, it is impossible to know the true scale of the problem, so legislators are left with best estimates.

Child abuse is the same, as are many of the fraud related offences and anything else you can think of where the victim might be reluctant to make a report.

We probably have good figures for burglary because it's likely the vast majority of those offences are reported, if only to get a crime number for insurance purposes.

But difficulties in obtaining nailed on offending data is not a valid excuse to ignore a known problem, although it is an excuse.

 

[Milkfloat]

As I understand it if their is fraud then it is almost all by postal vote, something id documents won’t solve.

 

[classic33]

As I understand it if their is fraud then it is almost all by postal vote, something id documents won’t solve.

Not always, you do get people turning up at polling stations on the day. Using someone else's name and address, two reported cases/incidents in this years local elections.

Ditch the postal voting for all but those who can't genuinely make it to the polling stations. That way you'd stop some trying to get a second vote on the day. Registers in use at polling stations are marked with regards postal voters.

 

[Milkfloat]

Does not seems proportionate to potentially disenfranchise hundreds of thousands, or potentially millions of voters for just two or even two hundred cases.

 

[classic33]

As far as I'm aware Bradford, large Asian population, had 17 cases* in the last local elections.

Two hundred could have swung a couple of seats locally, assuming they all voted for the same person.

That's 17 cases resulting in investigation after the election. Still not a large amount, given the population of Bradford.

To try and get the thread back on track, why not demand to know what the parties are going to do about it. Chances are it'll be the same person standing the following year. You then get the chance to ask what have they actually done, and remind them of past promises made.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Given the nature of the offending, it is impossible to know the true scale of the problem, so legislators are left with best estimates.

Child abuse is the same, as are many of the fraud related offences and anything else you can think of where the victim might be reluctant to make a report.

We probably have good figures for burglary because it's likely the vast majority of those offences are reported, if only to get a crime number for insurance purposes.

But difficulties in obtaining nailed on offending data is not a valid excuse to ignore a known problem, although it is an excuse.

How big is this "known problem"?

I know it's inconvenient but not hearsay please, just facts. Legislation based on "everybody knows" is almost bound to fail. Perhaps more effort needs to be put into "nailed on offending data", which should be easy if it is so widespread, so that the full context is known and any legislation framed appropriately.

 

[Bromptonaut]

But difficulties in obtaining nailed on offending data is not a valid excuse to ignore a known problem, although it is an excuse.

How, in the absence of at least firm data, can we be convinced that the 'known problem' actually exits?

The solution offered, ID at the Polling Place, is not without cost. The Elections Bill prescribes a Passport or Driving Licence which along with proof of age passes and various concessionary transport passes as the forms of ID which can be used. There are actually large numbers of people out there without any of those. I know this because my work involves helping people get their ID ducks in a row to claim Universal Credit.

OK, you can get an electoral ID card. However to get one you'll need to attend the Council's Office and jump through various hoops to be prescribed by as yet unpublished regulations so as to prove your ID. Whatever @Pale Rider and others say that is not, if the process resembles that in Northern Ireland and is skewed towards attending in person, an easy thing. Locally the registration office is in Towcester which is not accessible from here by public transport. Other people will struggle to fit it in with their work. I doubt you'll be able to get a card on Polling Day and certainly not after 5pm.

It will, unavoidably, prevent people who are otherwise entitled from voting.

Is that price one worth paying to tackle a problem who's proven scope is tiny?

 

[Pale Rider]

How, in the absence of at least firm data, can we be convinced that the 'known problem' actually exits?

The solution offered, ID at the Polling Place, is not without cost. The Elections Bill prescribes a Passport or Driving Licence which along with proof of age passes and various concessionary transport passes as the forms of ID which can be used. There are actually large numbers of people out there without any of those. I know this because my work involves helping people get their ID ducks in a row to claim Universal Credit.

OK, you can get an electoral ID card. However to get one you'll need to attend the Council's Office and jump through various hoops to be prescribed by as yet unpublished regulations so as to prove your ID. Whatever @Pale Rider and others say that is not, if the process resembles that in Northern Ireland and is skewed towards attending in person, an easy thing. Locally the registration office is in Towcester which is not accessible from here by public transport. Other people will struggle to fit it in with their work. I doubt you'll be able to get a card on Polling Day and certainly not after 5pm.

It will, unavoidably, prevent people who are otherwise entitled from voting.

Is that price one worth paying to tackle a problem who's proven scope is tiny?

Last I heard one idea was to bring some form of existing ID with you and the card to the polling station.

That's not foolproof, but wouldn't need anyone to make special journeys or involve themselves in local administration.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Last I heard one idea was to bring some form of existing ID with you and the card to the polling station.

That's not foolproof, but wouldn't need anyone to make special journeys or involve themselves in local administration.

That's not clear in the Bill currently being considered by Parliament.

I assume by 'the card' you are referring to the polling xard delivered by post ahead of the election. What form of ID might you bring with you bearing in mind the need for it to include a photo?

 

[FishFright]

Expect all you like, but it won't change anything.

Failing to tackle the problem out of a misplaced sense of political correctness is part of the problem.

Same thing happened with the Asian grooming gangs, although I accept this is trivial in comparison.

So no you haven't either, loads of racists have told me what a problem it is and not one has ever managed to provide any evidence.

Same thing with child abuse, the evidence says one thing and the newspapers report something else entirely.

 

[Pale Rider]

That's not clear in the Bill currently being considered by Parliament.

I assume by 'the card' you are referring to the polling xard delivered by post ahead of the election. What form of ID might you bring with you bearing in mind the need for it to include a photo?

It doesn't have to include a photo, although clearly that would make it more effective.

So no you haven't either, loads of racists have told me what a problem it is and not one has ever managed to provide any evidence.

Same thing with child abuse, the evidence says one thing and the newspapers report something else entirely.

Those who squawk racism at the very mention of race are a big part of the problem.

It is widely accepted many child victims of Asian men got away with it for so long/for ever because some police forces found the topic too hot to handle.

Given the large number of Asian grooming gangs reported in the Press, I'm not sure what the 'something else' you say they are reporting refers to.