Bye Bye Democracy.

I don't know anyone who has been murdered, mugged, raped, victim of a scam, or who has had a relative or close friend suffer any of those things, does that prove that those crimes doesn't happen?

These are relatively rare to events in relation to the population of the UK, so your chances of knowing someone who has experienced one of these crimes is (depending on your socioeconomic status) going to be statistically low.

Voter ID fraud is even more of an extremely rare event in relation to the population of the UK.
 
Last edited:
Remember, these Tory MPs who want voter ID were, and would have been, the very same Tory MPs who would have (quite rightly) rejected NuLabour's national ID card legislation.

Are they the same Tories who want to change electoral boundaries to their advantage?
The same Tories whose levelling-up agenda wasn't based on the areas of most need, but the Tory areas they most need votes from.
Is this the same Tories who allegedly prioritise sending asylum seekers to Labour controlled areas over Tory ones?
If only there was some kind of simple diagram to explain this, Venn people may start to understand....
 

dutchguylivingintheuk

Well-Known Member
6 pages about having to identify at the ballot box? Everywhere in europe it's already mandoratory, not since last week, net since last years but for years.
And they experiencing none of the issues mentioned here, apart from having a lack of choice as the Tory/labour situation here also happens in other countries, parties haven different names issues are the same.

Remember, these Tory MPs who want voter ID were, and would have been, the very same Tory MPs who would have (quite rightly) rejected NuLabour's national ID card legislation.
What is the issue with an national id? again the uk is one of the few western countries in Europe who doesn't have it and where it seems to be predicted as hell on earth or ''death to democrazy'' if introduced. What makes the Uk so different?
 

winjim

Welcome yourself into the new modern crisis
6 pages about having to identify at the ballot box? Everywhere in europe it's already mandoratory, not since last week, net since last years but for years.
And they experiencing none of the issues mentioned here, apart from having a lack of choice as the Tory/labour situation here also happens in other countries, parties haven different names issues are the same.


What is the issue with an national id? again the uk is one of the few western countries in Europe who doesn't have it and where it seems to be predicted as hell on earth or ''death to democrazy'' if introduced. What makes the Uk so different?

The issue is that any restriction on freedom needs to be justified, proportionate, necessary and democratic. We need to balance the right to anonymity and privacy with the right to access services etc.

So what problems does it solve, what improvements does it facilitate and what safeguards does it provide against abuse and misuse?
 

dutchguylivingintheuk

Well-Known Member
The issue is that any restriction on freedom needs to be justified, proportionate, necessary and democratic. We need to balance the right to anonymity and privacy with the right to access services etc.
I don't see those problems being any more of a problem here as anywhere else in Europe. Except for the rest of Europe still being rules by the overlords of the eu which is much less democratic per defenition as the eu-elections only choose the one layer off overlords not all of them.
So what problems does it solve, what improvements does it facilitate and what safeguards does it provide against abuse and misuse?
The problem is seems to combat is identity fraud, you could argue it even forces poeple who wouldn't be allowed to vote by their abbusive partner/hushband/fathetr etc. but i think that is wishful thinking.
Safeguards again you tell me what dangerous issues only happen in the uk if they introduce this system? Because it's working fine in other countries, from the last time i went to vote in the uk, they will just need to check your id next to your polling card en then you choose in the polling booth seems safely enough to me.
there are not any more or less voter fraud claims in the uk or the rest of Europe none of which have been proven..
 

Craig the cyclist

Senior Member
The issue is that any restriction on freedom needs to be justified, proportionate, necessary and democratic. We need to balance the right to anonymity and privacy with the right to access services etc.

So what problems does it solve, what improvements does it facilitate and what safeguards does it provide against abuse and misuse?

But what 'restriction of freedom' does having a National ID system involve?

No-one appears to mind in those areas of the UK where an ID is already in use, why would it matter if it rolled out wider?
 

winjim

Welcome yourself into the new modern crisis
you tell me

No no no no no. We start from the premise that it is not required. It's up to those who want to introduce it to provide justification.

But what 'restriction of freedom' does having a National ID system involve?

No-one appears to mind in those areas of the UK where an ID is already in use, why would it matter if it rolled out wider?

The freedom to not have to carry an ID card around. Anything the goverment makes mandatory is by definition a restriction of freedom. It all depends on how it's implemented, hence my point about safeguards. Quite frankly I wouldn't trust this government with a Blockbuster Video rental card, never mind a national ID database.
 

Craig the cyclist

Senior Member
The freedom to not have to carry an ID card around. Anything the goverment makes mandatory is by definition a restriction of freedom. It all depends on how it's implemented, hence my point about safeguards. Quite frankly I wouldn't trust this government with a Blockbuster Video rental card, never mind a national ID database.

But you are on numerous National databases already. How would being on another restrict any freedom you already have?

There are already areas of the UK where ID cards are in place, why would this be any different?
 
But you are on numerous National databases already. How would being on another restrict any freedom you already have?

There are already areas of the UK where ID cards are in place, why would this be any different?
Which areas of the UK have mandatory ID cards?

ID for voting was introduced in NI because personation/vote early vote often were part of the political culture.

Never been a big thing anywhere else though.
 

winjim

Welcome yourself into the new modern crisis
But you are on numerous National databases already. How would being on another restrict any freedom you already have?

There are already areas of the UK where ID cards are in place, why would this be any different?

Anything I'm required to do by the government is by definition a restriction of freedom. And this government are a bunch of daffodils.

I'm sorry if this is too simplistic for you.
 

dutchguylivingintheuk

Well-Known Member
No no no no no. We start from the premise that it is not required. It's up to those who want to introduce it to provide justification.
i'm not in in favor or against it, as i fall behind the main aim as i can only vote in local elections.
The freedom to not have to carry an ID card around. Anything the goverment makes mandatory is by definition a restriction of freedom.
Agreed
It all depends on how it's implemented, hence my point about safeguards. Quite frankly I wouldn't trust this government with a Blockbuster Video rental card, never mind a national ID database.
Yes but i national id database won't really depend on this government as any new government is unlikely to unlearn information that it provides to them. Since my local council in order to tax me properly already need to known how many people live in my household what there names are and such, a national id would'nt really change much in that sense now would it? I mean the taxman already knows it, so the argument against would be carrying a card, would an chip under your skin be any better then? or are their other objections we haven't mentioned yet?
 

Craig the cyclist

Senior Member
Which areas of the UK have mandatory ID cards?

ID for voting was introduced in NI because personation/vote early vote often were part of the political culture.

Never been a big thing anywhere else though.
You have introduced the word 'mandatory' which I have been careful not to use in saying that they are in use in some areas of the UK.

But anyway, Gibraltar have had ID cards for years....

1668496741422.png
they are moving to e-versions.
 
Top Bottom